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Boston mayor tells Chick-fil-A to stay out.

  • OmegaBuckeye said...

    Actually quite a few of them were Deists and not Christians.

    Yup... but our opponent considers them Christian as long as they make his point.

    RabbitSC

  • Status said...

    That's just what the liberals and gays do. They preach about tolerance but only when it's something they agree with.

    It's really absurd how such a small minority group tries to take such a vocal stage. Nobody cares what they think... they are weird.

    so, by this logic, people that are the subjects of intolerance should be tolerant of the intolerance.

    gotcha.

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    GoingLightBarny

  • we should all be more tolerant to intolerance. This is a good lesson in tolerance. when someone is being intolerant to you, you just look at him and say, i am gonna tolerate this because i am so tolerant. if i refuse to tolerate your intolerance, then i will be intolerant.

    i am just so sad to say that Martin Luther King did many wonderful thing, but he taught intolerance to so many people... i though he would have been more tolerant because, you know, he was a Christian...

    i am getting dizzy

    This post was edited by GoingLightBarny on 7/30/2012 at 9:14 AM

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    GoingLightBarny

  • first Chief Justice of the United States, desired that we should "select and prefer Christians" for office.

    The very first Supreme Court Justice, John
    Jay, said: "Americans should select and prefer Christians
    as their rulers."

    There are many problems with trying to leverage this statement into something more than it really is. While voters can choose their candidates for any reason they deem fit, the Constitution explicitly disallows any official religious test for public office (Article VI). In fact, this is the only place that the Constitution even mentions religion. George Washington himself, in a personal letter to a church in Baltimore, penned words which dispute Jay's ideas: "...a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest offices that are known in the United States." (Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol. I, p. 497.)

    John Jay remained Chief Justice for only six years and then left to be the governor of New York. Jay was an anti-Catholic bigot and, while governor, led an unsuccessful movement to banish Catholics from New York. (Thomas J. Curry, The First Freedoms, p. 162.) Apparently, Jay did not even believe in religious toleration, let alone full-blown religious freedom.

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • OmegaBuckeye said...

    first Chief Justice of the United States, desired that we should "select and prefer Christians" for office.

    The very first Supreme Court Justice, John
    Jay, said: "Americans should select and prefer Christians
    as their rulers."

    There are many problems with trying to leverage this statement into something more than it really is. While voters can choose their candidates for any reason they deem fit, the Constitution explicitly disallows any official religious test for public office (Article VI). In fact, this is the only place that the Constitution even mentions religion. George Washington himself, in a personal letter to a church in Baltimore, penned words which dispute Jay's ideas: "...a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest offices that are known in the United States." (Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol. I, p. 497.)

    John Jay remained Chief Justice for only six years and then left to be the governor of New York. Jay was an anti-Catholic bigot and, while governor, led an unsuccessful movement to banish Catholics from New York. (Thomas J. Curry, The First Freedoms, p. 162.) Apparently, Jay did not even believe in religious toleration, let alone full-blown religious freedom.

    Red tastes like triangle

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    GoingLightBarny

  • Gents, I will def. look into and research the things you have posted in regards to the quotes.I have not had any time to even respond much less research. I wish to be accurate and it was never my intent to try to be deceiving or even give that implication. If the sources that I have used are indeed inaccurate then I will take note of that. If I am wrong, then I am man enough to admit that and learn from it.

    I do however, stand by my assertion that a large majority of the Founders were indeed Christian and this did have a profound influence on them and their forming of the statutes that govern this nation. I am sure you will disagree, which I respect. And just for the record, one more time since it was brought up several times by a couple of you guys, I never stated that Christianity was/is/or should be the State religion.

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    pstrjohn

  • BamaLivesFootba said...

    Indeed. I was going to chime in, but rams and co. Have this on lockdown. +1s for all!

    I came back in after seeing the gymnastics competition and didn't even have to respond. Pretty impressive guys.

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    MsnBama

  • pstrjohn said...

    Gents, I will def. look into and research the things you have posted in regards to the quotes.I have not had any time to even respond much less research. I wish to be accurate and it was never my intent to try to be deceiving or even give that implication. If the sources that I have used are indeed inaccurate then I will take note of that. If I am wrong, then I am man enough to admit that and learn from it.

    I do however, stand by my assertion that a large majority of the Founders were indeed Christian and this did have a profound influence on them and their forming of the statutes that govern this nation. I am sure you will disagree, which I respect. And just for the record, one more time since it was brought up several times by a couple of you guys, I never stated that Christianity was/is/or should be the State religion.

    Which statutes were formed based on the profound influence of christianity?

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • Dawg E Style161

  • OmegaBuckeye said...

    Which statutes were formed based on the profound influence of christianity?

    He said a large majority of the founders were Christians, and would have had a profound influence on them forming that statutes. And you want him to explain the exact mindset of each founder and how their thoughts translated to the the formation of the country?

    You have you beliefs, and more power to you, but by god, those crazy christians must agree with your beliefs, and damn them for even thinking they are entitled to their own.

    How dare pstrjohn believe there was any Christian influence, or influence from the bible that had any impact whatsoever in the founding of this country. You want to believe in gay marriage, there was no christian influence in the founding of the country, and and Mr Kathy should be drawn an quartered, have at it. No intention to try and convince you any differently, no desire to try. I will never understand why someone's beliefs in The Lord Jesus Christ, are so frightening, or offensive, to those that don't believe.

    VTSmitty ●

  • Dawg E Style161

  • VTSmitty ●

  • VTSmitty said...

    lol

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    Dawg E Style161

  • VTSmitty said...

    He said a large majority of the founders were Christians, and would have had a profound influence on them forming that statutes. And you want him to explain the exact mindset of each founder and how their thoughts translated to the the formation of the country?

    You have you beliefs, and more power to you, but by god, those crazy christians must agree with your beliefs, and damn them for even thinking they are entitled to their own.

    How dare pstrjohn believe there was any Christian influence, or influence from the bible that had any impact whatsoever in the founding of this country. You want to believe in gay marriage, there was no christian influence in the founding of the country, and and Mr Kathy should be drawn an quartered, have at it. No intention to try and convince you any differently, no desire to try. I will never understand why someone's beliefs in The Lord Jesus Christ, are so frightening, or offensive, to those that don't believe.

    I never said anyone must agree with me and that people aren't entitled to their own opinions. I would like to see well thought out reasons as to how one has come to certain conclusions. Instead I get glittering generalities that lose their shine when examined closely. When you get down into the details of something you can see where the varnish has worn thin and where the weels have come off. I asked him to give some examples of the statutes influenced by christianity. You can save the whole 'woe is me' persecuted christian majority schtick for someone that doesn't know better.

    I have already stated my opinion on Mr Kathy. I don't agree with what he stands for, I will not support his company, he is free to hold his beliefs and run his company as he believes is right. As to your perceived reaction of fear or offense (its really just watchfulness), maybe it has something to do with the fact that at least 3 of the republican presidential nominees do not believe in the separation of church and state. You might want to ask yourself why you are having an apparantly emotional reaction to this discussion.

    I'll leave you with this thought.

    Madison also made a point that any believer of any religion should understand: that the government sanction of a religion was, in essence, a threat to religion. “Who does not see,” he wrote, “that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?”

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • VTSmitty said...

    He said a large majority of the founders were Christians, and would have had a profound influence on them forming that statutes. And you want him to explain the exact mindset of each founder and how their thoughts translated to the the formation of the country?

    You have you beliefs, and more power to you, but by god, those crazy christians must agree with your beliefs, and damn them for even thinking they are entitled to their own.

    How dare pstrjohn believe there was any Christian influence, or influence from the bible that had any impact whatsoever in the founding of this country. You want to believe in gay marriage, there was no christian influence in the founding of the country, and and Mr Kathy should be drawn an quartered, have at it. No intention to try and convince you any differently, no desire to try. I will never understand why someone's beliefs in The Lord Jesus Christ, are so frightening, or offensive, to those that don't believe.

    I would want him to explain that, or at least provide real, tangible analysis on what the FF believed and how it influenced the formation of the US government. Not because that is essential to the argument (the constitution and treaty of tripoli cearly demonstrate beyond the slightest doubt that the US is secular), but because those are interesting, lnfluential men and we should, therefore, care about what they think.

    I don't care if people agree with what I think. I do care that they don't legislate their beliefs - that's it. You can believe in yahweh, allah, thor, the flying spaghetti monster, the westboro baptists, a floating t-rex named doug, whatever. That's your right. You can't, under the clause of the 1st amendment, use the government to dictate those beliefs into the legal system of the US.

    My first post in this thread is that I think the mayor is in the wrong here. CFA has a right to speak out against homosexuality. Boston's public office should not have the right to discriminate against them for it (this would be different if it was the owner of a private building and CFA wanted to rent out a room, however). And, if the mayor of Boston really is right, the Bostonians will speak with their wallets and the CFA will do quite poorly there.

    As for the last sentence: I will never understand why someone's beliefs in The Lord Jesus Christ, are so frightening, or offensive, to those that don't believe.

    Someone's beliefs in jesus don't matter to me at all. It's the people who act on these beliefs. Here are a few examples:

    1. Creationism attempting to be taught in schools
    2. Threatening little kids with eternal torture (If you told a kid, "Do what I say or else I will throw you in the basement and set you on fire!", child protectice services would take him away. If you tell a kid, "Do what I say or else after you die god will throw you in the basement and set you on fire!", you're just a christian parent. Those threats are equally as real and as abusive.)
    3. People actively disbelieving in separation of church and state
    4. Kony
    5. Bills like 'kill the gays' in Uganda
    6. Parents refusing medical treatment for their kids because they believe in "faith healing"
    7. Ministers in Africa telling people that, despite having AIDS, using a condom is a horrible thing. Africa now has millions of people dying for no good reason.
    8. Governments refusing to allow people to get abortions when they are medically necessary to save the would-be mother's life

    That doesn't offend me as a secularist or an atheist, it offends me as a human being because it is wrong.

    ramssuperbowl99

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    I would want him to explain that, or at least provide real, tangible analysis on what the FF believed and how it influenced the formation of the US government. Not because that is essential to the argument (the constitution and treaty of tripoli cearly demonstrate beyond the slightest doubt that the US is secular), but because those are interesting, lnfluential men and we should, therefore, care about what they think.

    I don't care if people agree with what I think. I do care that they don't legislate their beliefs - that's it. You can believe in yahweh, allah, thor, the flying spaghetti monster, the westboro baptists, a floating t-rex named doug, whatever. That's your right. You can't, under the clause of the 1st amendment, use the government to dictate those beliefs into the legal system of the US.

    My first post in this thread is that I think the mayor is in the wrong here. CFA has a right to speak out against homosexuality. Boston's public office should not have the right to discriminate against them for it (this would be different if it was the owner of a private building and CFA wanted to rent out a room, however). And, if the mayor of Boston really is right, the Bostonians will speak with their wallets and the CFA will do quite poorly there.

    As for the last sentence: I will never understand why someone's beliefs in The Lord Jesus Christ, are so frightening, or offensive, to those that don't believe.

    Someone's beliefs in jesus don't matter to me at all. It's the people who act on these beliefs. Here are a few examples:

    1. Creationism attempting to be taught in schools
    2. Threatening little kids with eternal torture (If you told a kid, "Do what I say or else I will throw you in the basement and set you on fire!", child protectice services would take him away. If you tell a kid, "Do what I say or else after you die god will throw you in the basement and set you on fire!", you're just a christian parent. Those threats are equally as real and as abusive.)
    3. People actively disbelieving in separation of church and state
    4. Kony
    5. Bills like 'kill the gays' in Uganda
    6. Parents refusing medical treatment for their kids because they believe in "faith healing"
    7. Ministers in Africa telling people that, despite having AIDS, using a condom is a horrible thing. Africa now has millions of people dying for no good reason.
    8. Governments refusing to allow people to get abortions when they are medically necessary to save the would-be mother's life

    That doesn't offend me as a secularist or an atheist, it offends me as a human being because it is wrong.

    I don't understand why you keep trying to make this so hard. As a man thinks so is he. What you believe and stand for forms your thought, actions and intents. Plain and simple these men were Christian and no doubt that character in rem helped them form what they produced. Surely you can understand that. My 7 year old does.

    This post was edited by pstrjohn on 7/30/2012 at 6:14 PM

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    pstrjohn

  • This thread has made one thing blatantly obvious------some people are educated way beyond their intelligence.

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    pstrjohn

  • pstrjohn said...

    I don't understand why you keep trying to make this so hard. As a man thinks so is he. What you believe and stand for forms your thought, actions and intents. Plain and simple these men were Christian and no doubt that character in rem helped them form what they produced. Surely you can understand that. My 7 year old does.

    Except for the fact that what the instructions they wrote and the laws they wrote on how the US should be governed don't match up with someone who is christian...

    ramssuperbowl99

  • pstrjohn said...

    I don't understand why you keep trying to make this so hard. As a man thinks so is he. What you believe and stand for forms your thought, actions and intents. Plain and simple these men were Christian and no doubt that character in rem helped them form what they produced. Surely you can understand that. My 7 year old does.

    There were christians, deists, free masons, and atheists in this group of men. Surely you can understand that. Religion played less of a role in the development of their character than did their classical education. The founding fathers were much more influenced by Montesquieu, Sir William Blackstone, John Locke, David Hume, Plutarch, Cesare Beccaria, John Trenchard and Thomas Gordon, Delolme, Samuel Pufendorf, Sir Edward Coke, Cicero, Thomas Hobbes, William Robertson, Hugo Grotius, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Lord Bolingbroke, Francis Bacon, Richard Price, William Shakespeare, Livy, Alexander Pope, John Milton, Tacitus, Plato, Abbe Guillaume Raynal, Abbe Gabriel Mably, Niccolo Machiavelli, Emmerich de Vattel, William Petyt, Voltaire, John Robinson, Algernon Sidney, John Somers, James Harrington, Paul de Rapin-Thoyras. These are the influences that led to a ground breaking form a of government that accounted for its own short comings. These are the influences that led to their insistance on liberty and freedom. You can see directly where writers like John Locke influenced the thoughts and wording of the Declaration of Independence. You are asserting something that you have no evidence to back up.

    This time in history was known as the 'age of reason', a lot of people think the climate of the country was like it was when the puratins first came to the country. It wasn't.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by OmegaBuckeye on 7/30/2012 at 7:30 PM

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    I would want him to explain that, or at least provide real, tangible analysis on what the FF believed and how it influenced the formation of the US government. Not because that is essential to the argument (the constitution and treaty of tripoli cearly demonstrate beyond the slightest doubt that the US is secular), but because those are interesting, lnfluential men and we should, therefore, care about what they think.

    I don't care if people agree with what I think. I do care that they don't legislate their beliefs - that's it. You can believe in yahweh, allah, thor, the flying spaghetti monster, the westboro baptists, a floating t-rex named doug, whatever. That's your right. You can't, under the clause of the 1st amendment, use the government to dictate those beliefs into the legal system of the US.

    My first post in this thread is that I think the mayor is in the wrong here. CFA has a right to speak out against homosexuality. Boston's public office should not have the right to discriminate against them for it (this would be different if it was the owner of a private building and CFA wanted to rent out a room, however). And, if the mayor of Boston really is right, the Bostonians will speak with their wallets and the CFA will do quite poorly there.

    As for the last sentence: I will never understand why someone's beliefs in The Lord Jesus Christ, are so frightening, or offensive, to those that don't believe.

    Someone's beliefs in jesus don't matter to me at all. It's the people who act on these beliefs. Here are a few examples:

    1. Creationism attempting to be taught in schools
    2. Threatening little kids with eternal torture (If you told a kid, "Do what I say or else I will throw you in the basement and set you on fire!", child protectice services would take him away. If you tell a kid, "Do what I say or else after you die god will throw you in the basement and set you on fire!", you're just a christian parent. Those threats are equally as real and as abusive.)
    3. People actively disbelieving in separation of church and state
    4. Kony
    5. Bills like 'kill the gays' in Uganda
    6. Parents refusing medical treatment for their kids because they believe in "faith healing"
    7. Ministers in Africa telling people that, despite having AIDS, using a condom is a horrible thing. Africa now has millions of people dying for no good reason.
    8. Governments refusing to allow people to get abortions when they are medically necessary to save the would-be mother's life

    That doesn't offend me as a secularist or an atheist, it offends me as a human being because it is wrong.

    I personally believe in the flying spaghetti monster and his noodley goodness.

    lol

    Love that you included that. +1

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    MsnBama

  • pstrjohn said...

    This thread has made one thing blatantly obvious------some people are educated way beyond their intelligence.

    Good job, switch from logical tactics to ad hominem attacks.

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • Dawg E. Style said...

    I support Chic fil A too brother. If they don't like what was said they don't have to support his business. That is the beauty of America.

    Jeff4SC

  • Jeff4SC said...

    I support Chic fil A too brother. If they don't like what was said they don't have to support his business. That is the beauty of America.

    I will be there day after tomorrow in the front of the line'

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    Dawg E Style161

  • Dawg E. Style said...

    I will be there day after tomorrow in the front of the line'

    Yessir!

    Jeff4SC

  • Dawg E. Style said...

    I will be there day after tomorrow in the front of the line'

    I organized a flash mob today and stole all their condiments

    VTSmitty ●

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