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Can we all agree that

  • BamaLivesFootba said...

    Yes

    It is? serious question btw. I was under the impression that it is not a civil right.

    This post was edited by amrollZ71 on 10/25/2012 at 4:57 PM

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  • amrollZ71 said...

    It is? serious question btw. I was under the impression that it is not a civil right.

    Loving v. Virginia ruled it the most "basic civil rights of man".

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  • amrollZ71 said...

    It is? serious question btw. I was under the impression that it is not a civil right.

    I don't know legally if it's a civil right or not, though I have a feeling it isn't, but should it be? Most certainly. Because if not, who gets to make the rules on what constitutes marriage? The go-to answer for a lot of Americans is the religious majority but the problem is marriage isn't only tied to one religion. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, et al have their own marriage laws rooted in their religions. Hell, even paganism technically has marriage. But does that mean atheists or agnostics can't get married? Not in the slightest. Hell, you can be wed in a courtroom that has zero religious overtones at all. We may have a Christian majority (of which I am a part of) but we are not a Theocracy, therefore a legal wedding is just that. Legal. Nothing more. So, considering how ambiguous the idea of marriage really is, who gets to decide the "rules?"

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    sf2k4

  • BamaLivesFootba said...

    Loving v. Virginia ruled it the most "basic civil rights of man".

    Not to nit-pick, but wasn't that technically over race-related marital issues?

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    sf2k4

  • BamaLivesFootba said...

    Loving v. Virginia ruled it the most "basic civil rights of man".

    Ah yes, i had forgotten about that. My mistake. Hrrmmmm....i still think it would be "liberal" to go against what society wants in this case, which is certainly not gay marriage. Maybe not in the jurisdictional sense of liberalism though.

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  • sf2k4 said...

    Not to nit-pick, but wasn't that technically over race-related marital issues?

    Yeah it was, but i guess i agree that it does apply here

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  • sf2k4 said...

    I don't know legally if it's a civil right or not, though I have a feeling it isn't, but should it be? Most certainly. Because if not, who gets to make the rules on what constitutes marriage? The go-to answer for a lot of Americans is the religious majority but the problem is marriage isn't only tied to one religion. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, et al have their own marriage laws rooted in their religions. Hell, even paganism technically has marriage. But does that mean atheists or agnostics can't get married? Not in the slightest. Hell, you can be wed in a courtroom that has zero religious overtones at all. We may have a Christian majority (of which I am a part of) but we are not a Theocracy, therefore a legal wedding is just that. Legal. Nothing more. So, considering how ambiguous the idea of marriage really is, who gets to decide the "rules?"

    I do.disagree with it morally and religiously(Very important, but not key thing for why i think it should be illegal). Buy my main problem is that i see it unnatural.

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    amrollZ71

  • amrollZ71 said...

    Ah yes, i had forgotten about that. My mistake. Hrrmmmm....i still think it would be "liberal" to go against what society wants in this case, which is certainly not gay marriage. Maybe not in the jurisdictional sense of liberalism though.

    Not to sound like an ass, but at one point in time society wanted to enslave people, too. There's a line, which is pretty well defined at least IMO, where what the majority wants goes from democracy into, well, the realm of things like slavery, bigotry, squashing civil rights, etc.

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    sf2k4

  • sf2k4 said...

    Not to nit-pick, but wasn't that technically over race-related marital issues?

    That particular case, but the precedent is set that marriage is a civil right. That particular case was ruled unconstitutional because of the fourteenth amendment. If a case comes to the SCOTUS, that will be a part of the argument.

    The more likely manner in which same-sex marriage will come to this country is when DOMA is struck down by the SCOTUS and any couple married in a state where it is legal can go to any other state and that state has to recognize them, essentially making it legal nationwide.

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    "A political call, the fall guy accord...We can't afford to be neutral on a moving train..."

    BamaLivesFootba

  • amrollZ71 said...

    Ah yes, i had forgotten about that. My mistake. Hrrmmmm....i still think it would be "liberal" to go against what society wants in this case, which is certainly not gay marriage. Maybe not in the jurisdictional sense of liberalism though.

    Yea. You haven't seemed to differentiate the contemporary definition of liberalism as a political stance and the classical definiton of liberalism as a philosophy. Those two aren't always mutually exclusive, but they can be.

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    "A political call, the fall guy accord...We can't afford to be neutral on a moving train..."

    BamaLivesFootba

  • amrollZ71 said...

    I do.disagree with it morally and religiously(Very important, but not key thing for why i think it should be illegal). Buy my main problem is that i see it unnatural.

    I feel like we've had this discussion before, but: So why should your view that it is unnatural stop two gay people from getting married? It's not like you have to get married to another guy. If you're worried about seeing them frolicking in public together with all their gayness, stopping them from getting married isn't going to quell that. At the end of the day, it really is a matter of what goes on in the privacy of someone's home between two consenting adults that, at the end of the day, really doesn't affect your life at all. And no offense, but spare me the "sanctity of marriage" talk because there are plenty of things not even remotely related to this issue that make the institution of marriage look bad. Or, you can take my stance, which is that when I get married, my marriage will be GREAT, and that's all that matters to me. I honestly couldn't care less about someone else's marriage. (That's a stretch—I'd care about my friends' marriages, but you get my drift).

    Plus, as Daniel Tosh said: "This is what I say to the most conservative person that's so terrified of gay marriage becoming legal. Just because the state says it's legal, it's not like God's going to let them into Heaven. So you can still sleep sound every night knowing that goal line defense is up at the pearly gates going, 'You're not gettin' in here, faggots!'"

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    sf2k4

  • sf2k4 said...

    I feel like we've had this discussion before, but: So why should your view that it is unnatural stop two gay people from getting married? It's not like you have to get married to another guy. If you're worried about seeing them frolicking in public together with all their gayness, stopping them from getting married isn't going to quell that. At the end of the day, it really is a matter of what goes on in the privacy of someone's home between two consenting adults that, at the end of the day, really doesn't affect your life at all. And no offense, but spare me the "sanctity of marriage" talk because there are plenty of things not even remotely related to this issue that make the institution of marriage look bad. Or, you can take my stance, which is that when I get married, my marriage will be GREAT, and that's all that matters to me. I honestly couldn't care less about someone else's marriage. (That's a stretch—I'd care about my friends' marriages, but you get my drift).

    Plus, as Daniel Tosh said: "This is what I say to the most conservative person that's so terrified of gay marriage becoming legal. Just because the state says it's legal, it's not like God's going to let them into Heaven. So you can still sleep sound every night knowing that goal line defense is up at the pearly gates going, 'You're not gettin' in here, faggots!'"

    Nm

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    "A political call, the fall guy accord...We can't afford to be neutral on a moving train..."

    BamaLivesFootba

  • We have had this talk before....so.im just gonna let this alone

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    amrollZ71

  • amrollZ71 said...

    But throughout history as the great societies became more liberal in their policies these countries start to crumble from the inside out and eventually fall(Rome is a great example).

    LOL at you trying the tired Rome/America comparison

    The Western Empire "fell" because of a variety of factors.

    1)Several plagues wiped out large portion of the population.
    2)The economy fell behind the Eastern Empire, which by that time was much richer and had larger cities.
    3)The western empire also suffered from a series of military invasions from the north and extremely weak rulers played the various forces against each other, only to lose more and more political power.
    4)Eventually, the Vandals made it to Africa and completely cut off Roman supply lines.This made the military unable to support itself and the various Germanic tribes assumed more and more autonomy, eventually culminating in the various successor states.
    5) It didn't help that the Eastern Empire didn't give two shits about the West and actually encouraged several forces to attack them. They only attempted reconquest later in an attempt at glory.

    Essentially, the Roman Empire was dissolved the same way it was created - by military force. To pretend that it was the crazy liberals has almost zero historical basis.

    If anything, the later empire was much more religious and "moral" under the later Christian emperors than it was under the pagan emperors, several of whom had zero self restraint or responsibility, yet still managed to run effective empires - because they had the best army.

    tl;dr the Romans fell because their army started sucking, not because of a vague concept of "liberalism" that infiltrated their government.

    This post was edited by joetheogre on 10/26/2012 at 12:39 AM

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  • BamaLivesFootba said...

    ROFL@ Rome being liberal.

    Some people will believe what they want to believe.

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    "Madness is rare in individuals - but in groups, parties, nations, and ages it is the rule." - Friedrich Nietzsche

    joetheogre