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Canadian Universal Healthcare: Free or Not?

  • xxmgobluexx said...

    The argument is centered around you claiming it is free, not the deflection you just added.

    Baylor had some solid points showing that it isn't free.

    It is semantics.

    My argument

    if you don't personally pay = free

    Your argument

    if you don't pay someone else does = not free

    Really shocking revelation there. You are so smart man.

    signature image signature image signature image

    mriderblue12

  • TalHawkins112 said...

    Fair enough, I contend that for every Republican who donates money to charity because they want to philanthropic, another does it to receive a bigger tax break.

    And the charities keep track of this, so they can identify the Republicans and make fun of them.

    NigelUno

  • TalHawkins112 said...

    Fair enough, I contend that for every Republican who donates money to charity because they want to philanthropic, another does it to receive a bigger tax break.

    Wow, nice generalization. roflmao

    xxmgobluexx ●

  • mriderblue12 said...

    This argument is centered around semantics.

    And I wouldn't suggest the Americans adopt Canada's system, just think it's weird Americans pay marked up price for basic health services. Why on earth is any person trying to make chemo more expensive for the common folk?

    I wouldn't exactly call chemo "basic health services."

    I think what you've seen in America in regards to health care is a system that is very much based on private enterprise. Painting in extremely general strokes, most doctors and health facilities have become focused on ground breaking technologies, attracting top talent, and providing above the top service because they know that, in the current system, most people have a lot of choices in where they want to get their healthcare. To use a college sports comparison- there is somewhat of an "arms race" in American healthcare. And private insurance has helped fuel this phenomenon.

    While there are reports out there that indicate the quality of American healthcare is low, I believe they are somewhat faulty. Those that do get treated by American healthcare get perhaps the best in the world.

    The problem, rather, is that there is a portion of the population that simply can't afford the private insurance premiums that help drive that "arms race." Most of these folks either go uninsured and simply don't get healthcare unless it's an emergency (this is a small percentage). Or, they go on government funded Medicaid, which typically reimburses the doctors at a much lower rate. Being reimbursed at a lower rate means doctors that accept this form of payment have to treat a higher volume of patients, which typically means a lesser quality of care (in the general sense).

    Here's the heart of the issue, in my opinion. If Americans were to adapt to a canadian type system, they would expect the same level of care as they currently get through private insurance, which is just not realistic. They are used to doctors that have virtually no wait times and see only a few patients an hour in a highly specialized facility. That can’t be done on a massive government sponsored level. To do it, you're going to have to collect MUCH more in taxes. In a situation where you are already facing a massive budget deficit that is only getting wider, the last thing most people are wanting to do is to increase that gap, even if they do care about getting better healthcare to those that need it.

    It’s a very complicated situation.

    BaylorGuy314

  • I think some people may have touched on this point, but just because a kid doesn't pay income tax and doesn't directly pay a penny to the hospital does not necessarily make it free, even to the kid (points for using a triple negative). For example, the government may allocate some of the income it receives from taxes on gasoline to help pay for health care. If such is the case, then if the kid buys gas, he contributes to financing the program. If the kid smokes, he is paying government taxes on every pack and it's possible that the income on those taxes is used to fund health care. I don't know how Canada works but if Canada has a national sales tax and allocates some of that income to fund health care, then the kid is paying for his health care. Governments are well versed in creatively taxing all of us to fund their ever increasing bureaucracies, so if the kid is a consumer, I'd be willing to bet he is contributing something to foot the bill for health care.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by gwgator05 on 1/26/2012 at 3:44 PM

    gwgator05

  • gwgator05 said...

    I think some people may have touched on this point, but just because a kid doesn't pay income tax and doesn't directly pay a penny to the hospital does not necessarily make it free, even to the kid. For example, the government may allocate some of the income it receives from taxes on gasoline to help pay for health care. If such is the case, then if the kid buys gas, he contributes to financing the program. If the kid smokes, he is paying government taxes on every pack and it's possible that the income on those taxes is used to fund health care. I don't know how Canada works but if Canada has a national sales tax and allocates some of that income to fund health care, then the kid is paying for his health care. Governments are well versed in creatively taxing all of us to fund their ever increasing bureaucracies, so if the kid is a consumer, I'd be willing to bet he is contributing something to foot the bill for health care.

    Don't be bringing your common sense all up in here.

    NigelUno

  • BaylorGuy314 said...

    I wouldn't exactly call chemo "basic health services."

    I think what you've seen in America in regards to health care is a system that is very much based on private enterprise. Painting in extremely general strokes, most doctors and health facilities have become focused on ground breaking technologies, attracting top talent, and providing above the top service because they know that, in the current system, most people have a lot of choices in where they want to get their healthcare. To use a college sports comparison- there is somewhat of an "arms race" in American healthcare. And private insurance has helped fuel this phenomenon.

    While there are reports out there that indicate the quality of American healthcare is low, I believe they are somewhat faulty. Those that do get treated by American healthcare get perhaps the best in the world.

    The problem, rather, is that there is a portion of the population that simply can't afford the private insurance premiums that help drive that "arms race." Most of these folks either go uninsured and simply don't get healthcare unless it's an emergency (this is a small percentage). Or, they go on government funded Medicaid, which typically reimburses the doctors at a much lower rate. Being reimbursed at a lower rate means doctors that accept this form of payment have to treat a higher volume of patients, which typically means a lesser quality of care (in the general sense).

    Here's the heart of the issue, in my opinion. If Americans were to adapt to a canadian type system, they would expect the same level of care as they currently get through private insurance, which is just not realistic. They are used to doctors that have virtually no wait times and see only a few patients an hour in a highly specialized facility. That can’t be done on a massive government sponsored level. To do it, you're going to have to collect MUCH more in taxes. In a situation where you are already facing a massive budget deficit that is only getting wider, the last thing most people are wanting to do is to increase that gap, even if they do care about getting better healthcare to those that need it.

    It’s a very complicated situation.

    No one is saying Canada's system is perfect, in fact there is constant discussion about having privatized health care for those who want it. A two tiered system would be best way to describe it.

    Many want to have private clinic's open up, but too many worried about all the best doctors just leaving the public health system.

    America just all about dollars bottom line.

    signature image signature image signature image

    mriderblue12

  • mriderblue12 said...

    It is semantics.

    My argument

    if you don't personally pay = free

    Your argument

    if you don't pay someone else does = not free

    Really shocking revelation there. You are so smart man.

    Can you use the sidewalks are free analogy again?

    That was great.

    NigelUno

  • gwgator05 said...

    I think some people may have touched on this point, but just because a kid doesn't pay income tax and doesn't directly pay a penny to the hospital does not necessarily make it free, even to the kid (points for using a triple negative). For example, the government may allocate some of the income it receives from taxes on gasoline to help pay for health care. If such is the case, then if the kid buys gas, he contributes to financing the program. If the kid smokes, he is paying government taxes on every pack and it's possible that the income on those taxes is used to fund health care. I don't know how Canada works but if Canada has a national sales tax and allocates some of that income to fund health care, then the kid is paying for his health care. Governments are well versed in creatively taxing all of us to fund their ever increasing bureaucracies, so if the kid is a consumer, I'd be willing to bet he is contributing something to foot the bill for health care.

    Canadian health care is as free as police, as free as war. They all have an underlying bottom dollar cost, but how the government decides to spend their money is their call. Money never leaves my pocket directly for medical services.

    Bottom line is doesn't cost money to get treatment. I would never have a $100 000 dollar medical bill. I don't get charged $20 000 for chemo.

    signature image signature image signature image

    mriderblue12

  • mriderblue12 said...

    Bottom line is doesn't cost money to get treatment.

    roflmao

    /thread

    xxmgobluexx ●

  • mriderblue12 said...

    Canadian health care is as free as police, as free as war. They all have an underlying bottom dollar cost, but how the government decides to spend their money is their call. Money never leaves my pocket directly for medical services.

    Bottom line is doesn't cost money to get treatment. I would never have a $100 000 dollar medical bill. I don't get charged $20 000 for chemo.

    Well if it is as free as the police, then it isn't free. Where I live the police are funded through special assessments added to my property taxes. Therefore, if I own a home and pay my property taxes, then I am paying for the police. Don't worry renters, you pay too because your landlord bases your rental rate partially on the property taxes that will need to be paid for the property each year, that is if they don't have you contribute a set amount each month towards taxes directly. I also think you made my point with the comment of how the gov't chooses to spend its money is the govt's call. If you are a consumer of anything, you likely contribute to the socialized health care pot through taxes regardless of whether you have to stroke a check to the hospital or not. If you contribute to the funding of the program then it isn't free.

    gwgator05

  • mriderblue12 said...

    Canadian health care is as free as police, as free as war. They all have an underlying bottom dollar cost, but how the government decides to spend their money is their call. Money never leaves my pocket directly for medical services.

    Bottom line is doesn't cost money to get treatment. I would never have a $100 000 dollar medical bill. I don't get charged $20 000 for chemo.

    Question: Do you pay sales tax or any tax in Canada? Obviously not income tax as you said.

    signature image signature image signature image

    sf2k4

  • mriderblue12 said...

    Canadian health care is as free as police, as free as war. They all have an underlying bottom dollar cost, but how the government decides to spend their money is their call. Money never leaves my pocket directly for medical services.

    Bottom line is doesn't cost money to get treatment. I would never have a $100 000 dollar medical bill. I don't get charged $20 000 for chemo.

    Not getting a bill doesn't mean it's free though. Free implies that you never have to bear the cost of the service in any form.

    BaylorGuy314

  • gwgator05 said...

    Well if it is as free as the police, then it isn't free. Where I live the police are funded through special assessments added to my property taxes. Therefore, if I own a home and pay my property taxes, then I am paying for the police. Don't worry renters, you pay too because your landlord bases your rental rate partially on the property taxes that will need to be paid for the property each year, that is if they don't have you contribute a set amount each month towards taxes directly. I also think you made my point with the comment of how the gov't chooses to spend its money is the govt's call. If you are a consumer of anything, you likely contribute to the socialized health care pot through taxes regardless of whether you have to stroke a check to the hospital or not. If you contribute to the funding of the program then it isn't free.

    Semantics.

    I don't ever pay when visiting a doctor. I never rack up medical bills. There isn't a bill for my doctors visit.

    It's free bro.

    signature image signature image signature image

    mriderblue12

  • sf2k4 said...

    Question: Do you pay sales tax or any tax in Canada? Obviously not income tax as you said.

    I do personally but there are others who don't. Natives don't pay Governments sales taxes, and don't pay land, income or property tax.

    If the government is paying for it I consider it free.

    signature image signature image signature image

    mriderblue12

  • mriderblue12 said...

    I do personally but there are others who don't. Natives don't pay Governments sales taxes, and don't pay land, income or property tax.

    If the government is paying for it I consider it free.

    What do you think taxes do then?

    signature image signature image signature image

    sf2k4

  • mriderblue12 said...

    If the government is paying for it I consider it free.

    And where does the government get it's money?

    BaylorGuy314

  • sf2k4 said...

    What do you think taxes do then?

    How much does it cost to go to the hospital in Canada?

    signature image signature image signature image

    mriderblue12

  • BaylorGuy314 said...

    And where does the government get it's money?

    We just like America, China just gives us money.

    signature image signature image signature image

    mriderblue12

  • mriderblue12 said...

    Semantics.

    I don't ever pay when visiting a doctor. I never rack up medical bills. There isn't a bill for my doctors visit.

    It's free bro.

    LOL, if you say so my man. You're either trolling or you have bought what your government is selling you hook, line and sinker. If you contribute towards funding the government through taxes in any form (which you do) and the government funds your health care system, then you have paid for your health care. You may have paid a disproportionate amount compared to others, but you have paid for it nonetheless.

    gwgator05

  • mriderblue12 said...

    We just like America, China just gives us money.

    lol Ok, now I know you're trolling.

    BaylorGuy314

  • mriderblue12 said...

    How much does it cost to go to the hospital in Canada?

    Troll is in full effect, ladies and gents.

    signature image signature image signature image

    sf2k4

  • gwgator05 said...

    LOL, if you say so my man. You're either trolling or you have bought what your government is selling you hook, line and sinker. If you contribute towards funding the government through taxes in any form (which you do) and the government funds your health care system, then you have paid for your health care. You may have paid a disproportionate amount compared to others, but you have paid for it nonetheless.

    Just tell me what it costs to visit the doctor or to get an xray in Canada.

    signature image signature image signature image

    mriderblue12

  • sf2k4 said...

    Troll is in full effect, ladies and gents.

    But asking what taxes do wasn't a troll.

    Pot calling kettle black.

    signature image signature image signature image

    mriderblue12

  • mriderblue12 said...

    But asking what taxes do wasn't a troll.

    Pot calling kettle black.

    Do you know what a "troll" is? And I don't mean the mythical creature.

    signature image signature image signature image

    sf2k4

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