In partnership with CBSSports.com
Online Now 1833
Online now 2478 Record: 18710 (2/25/2012)
We aren't just committed to college football; we're early enrolling in it.
Where the madness isn't just in March.
You have no favorite boards.
The most viewed topics.
The most replied to topics.
The most up-voted topics.
The most down-voted topics.
The most up-voted posters.
The most down-voted posters.
The most followed posters.
I walk in zig zags to avoid God and crocodiles.
It's possible that God knows what you freely choose, no? Just because a choice is free doesn't necessarily imply that it will be unknowable.
p.s. the real problems with god results from his omnipotence, e.g., can he create a rock he can't pick up? Either way there's something he can't do--can't pick it up or can't create it.
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by tlhwg 14 months ago
This is very interesting thought. Why can't he pick it up? Why would he need to pick it up?
The Future Is Bright! Hotty Toddy
You're free to choose what you want.
I'll give another example to add to amroll's. My wife knows me very well and in nearly every decision I make, she know what I'll pick. Does that mean I'm literally not free to make a different choice? Of course not, it's foolish to suggest that.
The Bible explicitly says that God knows our hearts. That's how he knows what we'll choose, because he knows each one of us so well, not because he's forcing us to choose anything. Knowing what someone is going to decide is not the same thing as making the decision for them.
I knew the Colts were going to take Andrew Luck #1 overall last year. So by the logic used by most in this thread, I guess I chose him for the Colts; they didn't actually choose him, correct?
IMHO, they were on the fence from the beginning..
All of the scientific hoop-la-ga-ga doesn't convince or persuade a true believer..
.. but good luck with that !
Hope it brings lots of happiness and contentment!
That's right, must not have been TRUE christians
Just a reminder: it's important that our responses are relevant to the original point.
The makes the entire idea of waiting for judgement pointless. If god knows, with infallible certainty, every choice we make before it happens, they why wait for judgement?
Predestination doesn't allow for changing one's path. That's the point. We either have free will or people have no say in whether or not they go to heaven or hell.
Lol. I just want to know.
If someone doesn't actually commit murder, should they be convicted of it? I would think the idea of passing judgment without anything actually occurring would be anathema to you and most.
If you know, with 100% certainty that someone WILL commit a murder, why would your opinion of them change once they do it?
Lucky you then, huh? Guess those who were predestined for hell are SOL then? I suppose you think they deserve it though.
Just can't get over this post. You are thankful that a vast number of people are condemned to an eternity of torture because you aren't? That has to be the most selfish idea I have ever heard.
No. I'm thankful for my salvation. All I can do is spread the Gospel. Good job at twisting my words and throwing things in there that weren't said or implied.
Your argument is flawed because you are not God.
Sorry, predestination makes absolutely no sense. None.
And all this time I thought I was...
Where did I say I believed in predestination?
I don't really know where I'd place my faith at the moment. I was raised in a christian home but I am struggling mightily with it lately. All my life I have been told that it is God's wish for everyone to be saved. Well then why not take steps to further that cause? Why does it have to be a mystery as to whether or not he exists? Why not give us some kind of proof that the Bible is true? I mean people back then had all the miracles of Jesus to show them he was the son of God. We get a book telling us about it. It just seems all too convenient that there is no more proof than that. Kinda makes me think it was just made up.
And I would never ever send someone to hell for eternity no matter what they did. Maybe for a day or something depending on how their crime was, but eternity? Geez. And it's not just the serial killers or rapists that go there. It could be someone who would gladly believe the Bible if only there was some way to verify they weren't being duped.
I just can't figure out why God, who is said to love us more than we can imagine, would send anyone to hell. And I always get the convenient answer: "Well our human minds can't understand God's thoughts." Then why even bother preaching the Bible in the first place if it is just going to lead to questions that can't be answered? I just get the thought that hell is a way to scare people into believing the Bible.
I mean why does it have to be some big game? Why can't God just tell us straight up that we can either follow him or be condemned to hell? Would anyone here choose not to follow God if you were standing before him and he gave you that choice? Everyone would choose God unless they were mentally ill. Isn't that what God/Jesus wants? For everyone to choose him and avoid hell?
This post was edited by threepeat 14 months ago
This thread has always been about free will vs. predestination.
This post was edited by sf2k4 14 months ago
I think the OP was more about an attempt at making omniscience and free will logically incompatible. Although that does seem to naturally lead toward the predestination argument.
Predestination wasn't in the OP from what I recall, but it came up very quickly ITT.
And I'll address this just for funsies: If you could, with 100% total accuracy, predict and prove that someone was going to commit murder, why not arrest them before they do so? I realize we're big on "innocent until proven guilty" (which really doesn't apply in this theoretical situation) but if we could know about crimes beforehand, wouldn't our system of punishment (which focuses on the perpetrator) be less logical than one of prevention (which focuses on the victim)? Isn't it better to be proactive than reactive?
These hypothetical scenarios are blaring "Minority Report" at me.
Seems that your underlying/primary question here is essentially the infamous problem of evil, correct? It would seem that's at least what you're leading up to, if not outright asking. Just want to clarify before continuing on.
Minority Report, while a seemingly good example, is inherently flawed because, as we know from the movie, the "predictions" could be fabricated and/or misread. I'm only talking about some crazy, hypothetical system in which there is a 0% chance of error. Obviously, that is impossible.
With those totally impossible facets in mind, if you knew 100% that Joe was about to murder Roger, why wait until he does it before arresting him? Again, he will do it, we are 100% certain. Why allow Roger to suffer?
247Sports In partnership with CBS Sports