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Hippie tries to burn American flag, LSU students not having it

  • Tennessee said... (original post)

    I would encourage those hippies to travel the world a bit and see how terrible things really are elsewhere. Upon their return they'll hang their head in shame for attempting something so pathetic.

    Great job LSU fans. The water balloons were an excellent non violent but effective touch.


    "Elsewhere" as in where? Sure there are countries where they would be in far worse shape, deal with far more corruption, and just have a much much more terrible life. But there are also other countries that may offer them more for their life choices than the U.S. can.

    I do agree with your sentiment, they should travel the world a bit, but not just to see how terrible things really are elsewhere, but to find a new place to live too. Seems like a pretty solid Win/Win for everyone involved no?

  • tuskstider said... (original post)

    "Elsewhere" as in where? Sure there are countries where they would be in far worse shape, deal with far more corruption, and just have a much much more terrible life. But there are also other countries that may offer them more for their life choices than the U.S. can.

    I do agree with your sentiment, they should travel the world a bit, but not just to see how terrible things really are elsewhere, but to find a new place to live too. Seems like a pretty solid Win/Win for everyone involved no?

    Yes, I didn't mean to imply that everywhere else is terrible, but that compared to the quality of life in America, most places will not offer as much. Most other countries wouldn't tolerate that kind of outright protest either, it's something they can enjoy here though. Sure, people showed up to counter-protest, but it was nonviolent. In other countries they could have been beaten or killed, which isn't right, but is very realistic.

    I agree though, it would be a win/win for them to take their ridiculousness elsewhere.

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  • Tennessee said... (original post)

    Yes, I didn't mean to imply that everywhere else is terrible, but that compared to the quality of life in America, most places will not offer as much. Most other countries wouldn't tolerate that kind of outright protest either, it's something they can enjoy here though. Sure, people showed up to counter-protest, but it was nonviolent. In other countries they could have been beaten or killed, which isn't right, but is very realistic.

    I agree though, it would be a win/win for them to take their ridiculousness elsewhere.


    Glad to see we're on the same page :D

    Also, I re-read my posts a bit and I kinda sound a bit like an apologist for those who burned the flag... I just want to make it clear that I think they are epic douchebags who should never do such a thing, because they are doing so much more than just burning the flag. But I am in the boat that believe it should be protected by free speech. I don't agree what so ever with what they are doing, but I greatly respect their right to do so.

  • Geaux247

    LScootU

    tuskstider said... (original post)


    "Elsewhere" as in where? Sure there are countries where they would be in far worse shape, deal with far more corruption, and just have a much much more terrible life. But there are also other countries that may offer them more for their life choices than the U.S. can.

    I do agree with your sentiment, they should travel the world a bit, but not just to see how terrible things really are elsewhere, but to find a new place to live too. Seems like a pretty solid Win/Win for everyone involved no?

    Wrong!!!!! Why do so many people move to America? How come a lot of Americans don't move to other countries?

  • tuskstider said... (original post)

    Wrong!!!!! Why do so many people move to America? How come a lot of Americans don't move to other countries?


    So, just to see if I'm following the point you're making correctly, do you really believe that America is the best country for every single one of it's citizens, and that no country can offer ANY of our citizens a better overall life?

    If that's not the case.... then how am I wrong exactly?

  • Geaux247

    LScootU

    tuskstider said... (original post)


    So, just to see if I'm following the point you're making correctly, do you really believe that America is the best country for every single one of it's citizens, and that no country can offer ANY of our citizens a better overall life?

    If that's not the case.... then how am I wrong exactly?

    If these people can't live with the rights, opportunity, and the forgive-fullness that American citizens enjoy, then no. We provide equal rights to every gender, race, religion, and class. We provide food, tuition, money, health care, and opportunity to those who can't afford it. If you can't handle America than IMO you can't handle any other country.

  • tuskstider said... (original post)

    If these people can't live with the rights, opportunity, and the forgive-fullness that American citizens enjoy, then no. We provide equal rights to every gender, race, religion, and class. We provide food, tuition, money, health care, and opportunity to those who can't afford it. If you can't handle America than IMO you can't handle any other country.

    America does not provide equal rights to every gender, race, religion and class... and it's simply dishonest to say so. Yes... we like to SAY that we provide these things, but in actual practice it's simply not in line with the truth. Not to mention, there are many other countries that say/claim the exact same thing. (Note: I'm not saying that those core values of the US are not represented in the US. They are, and we continue to make great strides to truly be an equal country.)

    However, that really doesn't matter one way or another. If you truly believe that the US is the best place to live for each and every one of our citizens... you're simply in denial. And likely ignorant of other Cultures (as well as ours)

    This post was edited by theyellow_dup 3 years ago

  • Geaux247

    LScootU

    tuskstider said... (original post)


    America does not provide equal rights to every gender, race, religion and class... and it's simply dishonest to say so. Yes... we like to SAY that we provide these things, but in actual practice it's simply not in line with the truth. Not to mention, there are many other countries that say/claim the exact same thing.

    However, that really doesn't matter one way or another. If you truly believe that the US is the best place to live for each and every one of our citizens... you're simply in denial. And likely ignorant of other Cultures (as well as ours)

    Ok your right I'm wrong sorry.

  • Geaux247

    Lesticals

    tuskstider said... (original post)

    Glad to see we're on the same page :D

    Also, I re-read my posts a bit and I kinda sound a bit like an apologist for those who burned the flag... I just want to make it clear that I think they are epic douchebags who should never do such a thing, because they are doing so much more than just burning the flag. But I am in the boat that believe it should be protected by free speech. I don't agree what so ever with what they are doing, but I greatly respect their right to do so.

    Burning our flag should not be protected in freedom of speech. The flag is symbolism of what freedom represents. It should be immediate jail time for burning our flag, end of story.

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    Danielle Hunter, Jamario Rasco, Anthony FREAK Johnson.. DL wrecking crew of 2013.

  • Lesticals said... (original post)

    Burning our flag should not be protected in freedom of speech. The flag is symbolism of what freedom represents. It should be immediate jail time for burning our flag, end of story.

    You're absolutely correct that the flag is a symbolism of what freedom represents. And that same freedom that it represents, is what allows our citizens to burn it.

    When they burn the flag, they are being greatly dis-respectful, but are doing an act of Symbolic Speech, and therefore they are still within their free speech rights. I fully believe that to be the case, as does the Supreme Court.

  • Geaux247

    Lesticals

    tuskstider said... (original post)

    You're absolutely correct that the flag is a symbolism of what freedom represents. And that same freedom that it represents, is what allows our citizens to burn it.

    When they burn the flag, they are being greatly dis-respectful, but are doing an act of Symbolic Speech, and therefore they are still within their free speech rights. I fully believe that to be the case, as does the Supreme Court.

    You are correct... I really don't know what to say about this issue.

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    Danielle Hunter, Jamario Rasco, Anthony FREAK Johnson.. DL wrecking crew of 2013.

  • tuskstider said... (original post)

    You're absolutely correct that the flag is a symbolism of what freedom represents. And that same freedom that it represents, is what allows our citizens to burn it.

    When they burn the flag, they are being greatly dis-respectful, but are doing an act of Symbolic Speech, and therefore they are still within their free speech rights. I fully believe that to be the case, as does the Supreme Court.

    Well there needs to be an amendment that negates free speech in a situation that is only comparable with this one(i view it as treason). If you deserted your country as a Russian soldier in WWII you were shot and killed simple as that. You never deserted your country no matter the cost. Now i do not agree with that but that is the "attitude" that we need to have as American citizens. Sure America is not perfect in every way but what country is? If you want to try and make it a better place or have better conditions do it by protesting and not burning the flag. As far as i know Martin Luther King Jr. never burned the flag because of his disapproval of the way the country was. He still made progress. My point is that it would not be infringing on our rights in ANY way to stop this act of burning our flag.

    Edit: To further explain how i do not believe that it would be infringing on our rights is quite simple actually(in thought not necessarily process). It was made a law in the beginning of our countries history that we would have several rights and one of these happened to be the freedom of speech(symbolic speech included). I would propose that we simple make an amendment(long difficult process i know) that would simply view this as an act of treason instead of symbolic speech. For all the Gov. knows you could be a communist(yes i pulled out the old cold war communist conspiracy card). There are plenty other ways to show that you disapprove of things that our country does. I could go on and on about them. Not only is it disrespectful to burn the flag but it should also be considered illegal.

    This post was edited by James Moriarty 3 years ago

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    University of Alabama: The high mark of college football since 1892

  • tuskstider said... (original post)

    Well there needs to be an amendment that negates free speech in a situation that is only comparable with this one(i view it as treason). If you deserted your country as a Russian soldier in WWII you were shot and killed simple as that. You never deserted your country no matter the cost. Now i do not agree with that but that is the "attitude" that we need to have as American citizens. Sure America is not perfect in every way but what country is? If you want to try and make it a better place or have better conditions do it by protesting and not burning the flag. As far as i know Martin Luther King Jr. never burned the flag because of his disapproval of the way the country was. He still made progress. My point is that it would not be infringing on our rights in ANY way to stop this act of burning our flag.

    Edit: To further explain how i do not believe that it would be infringing on our rights is quite simple actually(in thought not necessarily process). It was made a law in the beginning of our countries history that we would have several rights and one of these happened to be the freedom of speech(symbolic speech included). I would propose that we simple make an amendment(long difficult process i know) that would simply view this as an act of treason instead of symbolic speech. For all the Gov. knows you could be a communist(yes i pulled out the old cold war communist conspiracy card). There are plenty other ways to show that you disapprove of things that our country does. I could go on and on about them. Not only is it disrespectful to burn the flag but it should also be considered illegal.

    Here is my post in the Bama thread on this subject, and someone else's:

    Ever seen the movie 'The Wave'? I've attached a link but it's about an experiment showing how easy it is to become caught up in nationalism to
    the point we become fascists. Checks and balances won't mean a thing if we get to the point we can't question our leaders- and honestly it's better to allow the extreme of burning our flag than only allow certain forms of freedom of speech, if only to ensure it is that much more difficult to lose.

    And no offense but you're pretty much the poster child for nationalism over reason. You never really considered my claim because if you had you would
    realize that Germans died for their country in both World Wars believing they were right, just as we did. We might have had morals on our side but had our positions been reversed you would still die for your country no matter the evil it had become if only because you would be caught up in the nationalism of believing your country can do no wrong and that America is superior to everyone else. Also, the idea behind nationalism that becomes fascism is that EVERYONE conforms. It wouldn't matter if every American had a gun as long as 70% agreed with the state and forced the others into conforming.

    Read the synopsis in the link.

    Owen1611 said...

    TalHawkins is speaking very sensibly. Hear what he's sayin'.

    The USA has had minor flare ups of fascist tendencies throughout its history, so I wouldn't be so confident that we could never have a fascist government. The most recent fascist wave in America was the Red Scare and the Senator McCarthy witchunts.

    There are two distinct factors that drive fascism: (1) ideology and (2) material interests.

    Ideologically, fascism is a mixture of nationalism, demagoguery (manipulating the public by appealing to their prejudices, emotions, patriotism, etc.), irrationalism ("nationalism over reason"), and violence and/or intimidation (e.g., by thug-like mobs). Needless to say, fascism is also radically intolerant of dissenting voices, and prefers to silence them with violence and/or intimidation.

    Materially, fascism is a savior and defender of capitalism and imperialism when these are threatened by Leftist political movements. Thus all fascist movements in history have been financed and underwritten by rich industrialists, bankers, and landowners. Thus fascist movements defend the interests of big business and always seek to control or destroy labor unions. Moreover, all fascist movements have an extremely intimate relationship with the state's armed forces: criticism of the armed forces or the policies that make use of them will not be tolerated.

    All fascists see communism as their main foe, hence they tend to see everyone who is on the left of the political spectrum as being "communists," whether they actually are or not (most likely they are not). Fascism is so ferociously opposed to communism that it could almost be defined as visceral anti-communism. It is here where some of the pressures of the Cold War led the USA to fascist-like episodes with McCarthyism.

    I'm a Master's student in Military History, and my specialization is on World War II and Nazi Germany, including studying the rise of fascism. The USA is still a democracy and there is still hope for our polity, but even healthy democracies have cracks through which fascist elements can and indeed have risen up, even in the USA. Fascism is still a present danger and can rise up very quickly. Flash mobs that intimidate dissenters into silence and/or exile is not the way we should handle political debate.

    [Update: I just looked up Michael Mann's book, who is a world authority on fascism; he says "fascism is the pursuit of a transcendent and cleansing nation-statism through paramilitarism", so there is a purification element to fascism too, where fascists seek to "purify" and "cleanse" the state from filth, like communists, socialists, hippies, and flag-burners.]

    Unavailable

    Either this website doesn't exist or is not currently available.

    http://www.thewave.tk/

    This post was edited by TalHawkins112 3 years ago

  • TalHawkins112 said... (original post)

    Here is my post in the Bama thread on this subject, and someone else's:

    Ever seen the movie 'The Wave'? I've attached a link but it's about an experiment showing how easy it is to become caught up in nationalism to the point we become fascists. Checks and balances won't mean a thing if we get to the point we can't question our leaders- and honestly it's better to allow the extreme of burning our flag than only allow certain forms of freedom of speech, if only to ensure it is that much more difficult to lose.

    And no offense but you're pretty much the poster child for nationalism over reason. You never really considered my claim because if you had you would realize that Germans died for their country in both World Wars believing they were right, just as we did. We might have had morals on our side but had our positions been reversed you would still die for your country no matter the evil it had become if only because you would be caught up in the nationalism of believing your country can do no wrong and that America is superior to everyone else. Also, the idea behind nationalism that becomes fascism is that EVERYONE conforms. It wouldn't matter if every American had a gun as long as 70% agreed with the state and forced the others into conforming.

    Read the synopsis in the link.

    Owen1611 said...

    TalHawkins is speaking very sensibly. Hear what he's sayin'.

    The USA has had minor flare ups of fascist tendencies throughout its history, so I wouldn't be so confident that we could never have a fascist government. The most recent fascist wave in America was the Red Scare and the Senator McCarthy witchunts.

    There are two distinct factors that drive fascism: (1) ideology and (2) material interests.

    Ideologically, fascism is a mixture of nationalism, demagoguery (manipulating the public by appealing to their prejudices, emotions, patriotism, etc.), irrationalism ("nationalism over reason"), and violence and/or intimidation (e.g., by thug-like mobs). Needless to say, fascism is also radically intolerant of dissenting voices, and prefers to silence them with violence and/or intimidation.

    Materially, fascism is a savior and defender of capitalism and imperialism when these are threatened by Leftist political movements. Thus all fascist movements in history have been financed and underwritten by rich industrialists, bankers, and landowners. Thus fascist movements defend the interests of big business and always seek to control or destroy labor unions. Moreover, all fascist movements have an extremely intimate relationship with the state's armed forces: criticism of the armed forces or the policies that make use of them will not be tolerated.

    All fascists see communism as their main foe, hence they tend to see everyone who is on the left of the political spectrum as being "communists," whether they actually are or not (most likely they are not). Fascism is so ferociously opposed to communism that it could almost be defined as visceral anti-communism. It is here where some of the pressures of the Cold War led the USA to fascist-like episodes with McCarthyism.

    I'm a Master's student in Military History, and my specialization is on World War II and Nazi Germany, including studying the rise of fascism. The USA is still a democracy and there is still hope for our polity, but even healthy democracies have cracks through which fascist elements can and indeed have risen up, even in the USA. Fascism is still a present danger and can rise up very quickly. Flash mobs that intimidate dissenters into silence and/or exile is not the way we should handle political debate.

    [Update: I just looked up Michael Mann's book, who is a world authority on fascism; he says "fascism is the pursuit of a transcendent and cleansing nation-statism through paramilitarism", so there is a purification element to fascism too, where fascists seek to "purify" and "cleanse" the state from filth, like communists, socialists, hippies, and flag-burners.]

    No offense taken.

    Here is my past that was a reply to one that you had posted earlier. This might clear up some misconceptions we have....

    Gonna have to disagree with this. I pledge allegiance to the United States of America and in no way do any politicians(or government for that matter.I pledge allegiance to a belief) Symbolize what i pledge allegiance to. What i pledge allegiance to is an idea or a belief. If you burn that Flag(Belief) then IMO you should be punished or it should be considered treason in some cases. So in short if i want to complain and about a politician then i can do so without disrespecting America because they do not represent what i believe in. I hope this makes sense. Typed it in a hurry...

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    University of Alabama: The high mark of college football since 1892

  • TalHawkins112 said... (original post)

    Here is my post in the Bama thread on this subject, and someone else's:

    Ever seen the movie 'The Wave'? I've attached a link but it's about an experiment showing how easy it is to become caught up in nationalism to the point we become fascists. Checks and balances won't mean a thing if we get to the point we can't question our leaders- and honestly it's better to allow the extreme of burning our flag than only allow certain forms of freedom of speech, if only to ensure it is that much more difficult to lose.

    And no offense but you're pretty much the poster child for nationalism over reason. You never really considered my claim because if you had you would realize that Germans died for their country in both World Wars believing they were right, just as we did. We might have had morals on our side but had our positions been reversed you would still die for your country no matter the evil it had become if only because you would be caught up in the nationalism of believing your country can do no wrong and that America is superior to everyone else. Also, the idea behind nationalism that becomes fascism is that EVERYONE conforms. It wouldn't matter if every American had a gun as long as 70% agreed with the state and forced the others into conforming.

    Read the synopsis in the link.

    Owen1611 said...

    TalHawkins is speaking very sensibly. Hear what he's sayin'.

    The USA has had minor flare ups of fascist tendencies throughout its history, so I wouldn't be so confident that we could never have a fascist government. The most recent fascist wave in America was the Red Scare and the Senator McCarthy witchunts.

    There are two distinct factors that drive fascism: (1) ideology and (2) material interests.

    Ideologically, fascism is a mixture of nationalism, demagoguery (manipulating the public by appealing to their prejudices, emotions, patriotism, etc.), irrationalism ("nationalism over reason"), and violence and/or intimidation (e.g., by thug-like mobs). Needless to say, fascism is also radically intolerant of dissenting voices, and prefers to silence them with violence and/or intimidation.

    Materially, fascism is a savior and defender of capitalism and imperialism when these are threatened by Leftist political movements. Thus all fascist movements in history have been financed and underwritten by rich industrialists, bankers, and landowners. Thus fascist movements defend the interests of big business and always seek to control or destroy labor unions. Moreover, all fascist movements have an extremely intimate relationship with the state's armed forces: criticism of the armed forces or the policies that make use of them will not be tolerated.

    All fascists see communism as their main foe, hence they tend to see everyone who is on the left of the political spectrum as being "communists," whether they actually are or not (most likely they are not). Fascism is so ferociously opposed to communism that it could almost be defined as visceral anti-communism. It is here where some of the pressures of the Cold War led the USA to fascist-like episodes with McCarthyism.

    I'm a Master's student in Military History, and my specialization is on World War II and Nazi Germany, including studying the rise of fascism. The USA is still a democracy and there is still hope for our polity, but even healthy democracies have cracks through which fascist elements can and indeed have risen up, even in the USA. Fascism is still a present danger and can rise up very quickly. Flash mobs that intimidate dissenters into silence and/or exile is not the way we should handle political debate.

    [Update: I just looked up Michael Mann's book, who is a world authority on fascism; he says "fascism is the pursuit of a transcendent and cleansing nation-statism through paramilitarism", so there is a purification element to fascism too, where fascists seek to "purify" and "cleanse" the state from filth, like communists, socialists, hippies, and flag-burners.]

    How did you like Mastering Military history? I am going to get my B.S. in history, but then plan on going into law.

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  • tuskstider said... (original post)

    How did you like Mastering Military history? I am going to get my B.S. in history, but then plan on going into law.

    Er, Owen1611 Mastered in History, you may want to message him. The last half of my message was quoted from him- I put that in the middle but it might have been lost in the text. I'm Mastering in Communication Studies lol

    theFightingtide said...

    Gonna have to disagree with this. I pledge allegiance to the United States of America and in no way do any politicians(or government for that matter.I pledge allegiance to a belief) Symbolize what i pledge allegiance to. What i pledge allegiance to is an idea or a belief. If you burn that Flag(Belief) then IMO you should be punished or it should be considered treason in some cases. So in short if i want to complain and about a politician then i can do so without disrespecting America because they do not represent what i believe in. I hope this makes sense. Typed it in a hurry...

    ------

    I can see how you find it offensive, and as I've said, I find it distasteful as well. But it's a symbolic form of freedom of speech and should be protected if only so that we allow ourselves all manner of ways to do express ourselves. Think about it like this- let's say we make flag burning treasonous. And then let's say I want to burn our next President in effigy ( create a doll of him and burn it to show how displeased I am with his domestic and foreign policy ) and that gets made treasonous because that person is our President. And then suddenly it becomes treasonous to speak out against the government at all. Do you see my point? It's just that it doesn't take long for us to lose freedom of speech altogether and the fact we CAN express ourselves in these vitriol-filled ways like flag burning only serves to allow us better ways to express ourselves and hold on to our freedoms.

    And as I alluded to in my post and quote of Owen, there are already some people who are close minded and tote the party line that America is so great that someone could harness that into a 'we are better than everyone else' mentality and then take over the government and punish anyone who disagreed, a la Hitler 1933.