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he rode velociraptors like a champ.
The Apostles were first-hand witnesses to the miracles, the Resurrection, etc. They had great reasons to believe and spread the word.
One might argue that it didn't start out being a faith based religion, but only transformed into one.
Jesus' suffering and death were much more significant thatt what you've espoused. In order to be the Savior of the world He'd first have to accomplish a perfectly sinless life. This means He was pure in thought, word and deed even though He was tempted like we are continually tempted (Hebrews 4:15). When we add to this Jesus' own words that breaking God's law happens in the heart (your inner intentions), and only manifests itself in the actions (see Matthew 5), then His perfect life becomes that much more impressive. How many people have I wanted to hurt badly in 5 oclock traffic, or how many women have I had sex with in my head? Next, Isaiah 53 (read this) describes for us the type of lonely and rejected life Jesus would live. That would play out in His life, and especially when He needed His family and friends the most. He was abandoned by all only to suffer alone. Still, He asked God to forgive us, even from the Cross. I could give numerous passges regarding how He suffered. But, it should suffice to point out that He never once complained about the physical torment He suffered. Mel Gibson's, "The Passion," might be a slightly exaggerated version of the physical torment He endured. Yet, it's probably in the ballpark. But, even then, He never commented on the physical torment, which must have been quite extensive. His prayer at Gethsemane and His cries from the Cross, were descriptions of His experience of utter and eternal torment of one abandoned by God. By taking the punishment of us all on His own shoulders He experienced all of the eternal torment that would be ours by Himself. We can't even begin to fathom. And, remember, He did this as a totally innocent sacrifice.
As to His followers. His message didn't ring true to a fallen world until His death and resurrection. What's amazing is how rapidly His Church grew, after His resurrection, despite the fact that the Romans hated the Church, and the Church's message was to follow a guy who had been executed by the State. Can you imagine trying to start a religious movement while touting the life, teachings, and death of an executed criminal whose followers all abandoned Him? Add to that the fact that the women were the first ones He appeared to with His original message after His resurrection (it was a very chauvinistic society that didn't put much stock in the word of a woman). The only possible explanation was that His message is so very true and life changing.
I can do more if you wish.
This post was edited by goodnews 23 months ago
South Carolina Gamecocks. The 2010 National College Baseball Champs.
Very true. I heard a sermon once to that effect, and it talked about the generation that knew Jesus and saw miracles first hand, and then their children, grandchildren, etc., until the generations no longer had anyone who could speak in first hand knowledge, and as you said, it really did transform into a faith based religion.
He was the only person to walk this world not in sin which is why his sacrifice was able to take the place of sinners damnation. The decision to sacrifice himself was not the remarkable thing but rather his ability to. I doubt Jesus put much thought in his decision to do it and I haven't read any where that suggests otherwise.
So technically with what you are saying, if you were "presented the same opportunity" to save everybody, you were presented that opportunity; all you had to do was never sin, and sacrifice your purity for all impurity.
Jesus actually did have thousands of followers, not just those identified as "disciples or Apostles". I cite a couple for you. On at least two different occasions, both of which are recorded in the Bible, He fed thousands of His followers miraculously. Matthew 14 records the account of feeding 5000 and Mark 8 records the feeding of 400. These were only the men (they did not count the women or children in those days when they would number a crowd) so it is actually plausible that the number could range much higher than that given that most married and had large families.
In Acts 2 the first post resurrection sermon, by Peter, resulted in 3000 being converted at one time and then the wording says that the numbers were added to daily, and later it says they were multiplied.
Also, to answer the OP's original question. He, Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin for all the world so that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. This was way more than a mere sacrifice or dying for someone. Only through His sacrifice is forgiveness of sins and restoration with God found.
The apostles were not only first hand witnesses, they were able to perform miracles. They were also able to give the ability to perform miracles to others.
This is true to a large extent, however, faith has always been at the foundation of it. Bible says He that Comes to God must first Believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
Also says without faith, it is impossible to please God...so I agree and also disagree
You will go to hell and I'm happy about that.
His message didn't ring true to a fallen world until His death and resurrection.
That is a good line. That sticks out as a moment the "Jesus" story could/should take off like wildfire. Thanks.
I guess I still don't fully realize the magnitude of what Jesus experienced for our sins. But if Jesus is God, then any suffering would be with the knowledge of heaven and knowing everything. I can't help but think that detracts from the significance a little.
If what he experienced was so incredibly terrible, then that leads me to question the existence of Hell being a proper punishment for modern people who might lack faith or were never exposed to Christianity. I don't want to derail the thread though, so lets shelve that topic.
I've heard all dogs go to heaven.
What about homosexual dogs?
My question to you is the same as to goodnews:
If Jesus is God, then any suffering would be with the knowledge of heaven and knowing everything. I can't help but think that detracts from the significance a little.
Also, I would expect God/Jesus to easily be free of sin, since the Bible describes sin as the breaking, or transgression, of God's law. How difficult would it be to not break your own laws?
That whole raising himself from the dead thing was pretty sweet.
I am a Buckeye...proof there is a God in Heaven who loves me.
Your posts in this thread have been solid but this one is a little bit off to me in one area.
You are correct that he was not well-liked by most Jews but it is not Judaism he was against... it was Rabbinical Judaism and the oral laws and traditions that had been fought and argued over for years and years by Pharisees and Sadducees. Many things have been twisted to where they look like he was against the written laws of the OT but that is just untrue. For example, Jesus pronouncing all food clean was in reference to hand washing. There was a huge debate going on about hands needing to be washed before the meal, with the Pharisees being very legalistic in their approach. Saying that all foods were pronounced clean is just a huge translation and context error. He ceremonial made food clean but in no way did that get rid of Kashrut. At this time, when food was being discussed to Jews, it was not referring to non-kosher foods because ONLY kosher foods were, in fact, food. This is something that every Jewish person Jesus spoke to knew.
Sorry for that tangent. To me, that was a good example of one of many, many things that made Jesus appear to be anti Jewish when he was actually a Jewish Rabbi. His message was not this completely new and different message from the OT. When he said to write the laws on your heart, that was not a new revelation... that was quoting God directly in Deuteronomy. He even said that he who disobeys the LEAST of these commandments will be called least in the kingdom of heaven and that is AFTER he got done saying that he did not come to abolish the law.
Many Jews did not accept Jesus because he was against their man-made traditions and doctrine. Not because he was anti-Jewish.
Yeah, good points. Those people did follow Jesus for a few days, but the he sent them away. Why do you think Jesus sent them away? Are this crowds reported to have continued to follow him?
I didn't see it. That is a personal problem I have with faith.
I did all that too.
"As far as the downvotes. It's a gnat biting an lion"
-- A member of tRCMB Justice League, taking the internet WAY WAY too seriously.
I think many theologians would debate on and disagree on this issue. Every soul must be exposed to the word of God; however, we know it is not possible that every person who has ever lived has been exposed to the word of God, so if they aren't, how can that be fair? It's a simle answer....I don't know. To me, that is only possible if every soul would be exposed to the word of God, not ever person. I guess that goes into reincarnation. But, I don't know how else it would be possible, and to the best of my knowledge the bible does not rule that out. I don't want to derail the thread either, but was compelled to respond to that
I didn't see the Roman Empire but I'm sure that happened.
How do you know?
I see a couple people spent all of their downvotes on me in here. Would you like to tell me why? I thought I was fairly reasonable and open throughout this thread. That kind of reaction seems silly.
Actually that adds significance...God is soooo full if love for his creation (even after we turned our back on him and exchanged the truth for a lie) that He himself would come and subject Himself to be treated less than God. He is a good God and a jealous God...sin had a price and He himself paid it. God is love.
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