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Serious question about Wisconsin

  • no
    Russell Wilson was a good quarterback. Nobody's denying that, but you also have some flaws in your argument. Montee Ball, I would argue, put the team on his back against Illinois to win that game and he's back this year. If it weren't for the interceptions that Wilson throws in the first half against MSU, the game is a lot closer the first time around. In typical hyperbole tRCMB fashion, you've exaggerated the "spanking" that the Badgers took in EL the first time around (Down 3 until a final minute TD-drive sealed the deal in 2010). And tell me why losing to TCU was such an embarrassment? Certainly losing to the number 2 ranked team in the country due to a botched 2-point conversion attempt by a poorly-called game that Paul Chryst had isn't NEARLY as embarrassing as getting your asses handed to you by the 10th ranked team in the country to the tune of 42 points (only after Saban pumped the brakes). If your'e going to hate on Wisconsin and try to pout why you aren't considered big brother in the conference yet over UW, keep crying because we aren't going anywhere. You had a vastly overrated 2010 team that beat one team that was ranked by the end of the year. 1.
    With that said, I'd consider MSU to be the favorites to win the conference this year. However, they've managed to blow it the last 2 years so we'll see what happens this year.

    If God dwells inside us, like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting

  • SpartanTailgate

    SpartanRocky

    Hey, just saying that they can reach up and bite someone at home. They really only have 3-4 tough Big 10 games, and 3 of them are at home (UM, WI, PSU). @tOSU is likely an L, but with tOSU ineligible and WI having a tough schedule, it's not that crazy to think Purdue could contend.

    FWIW, they do have 2 of the Big 10's best at CB and DT. A big sack or a pick-6 can change a game, so you never know.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • SpartanTailgate

    SpartanRocky

    Uhh, at the same time, Wilson accounted for multiple TDs vs. MSU because of his dual-threat capabilities. Sure he threw 2 INTs, but he also threw 2 TDs and ran in a 3rd.

    2010 was closer on the scoreboard than it was on the field. You were outgained by nearly 200 yards, out-rushed, and out time of possessed by over 8 minutes. Oh, and UW was +3 in TOs that game. I don't think it was a domination on the part of MSU, but it was a pretty solid victory.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • You can say that about any B10 opponent. My original point was that I believe Illinois will prove to be a more talented team than Purdue this year and I'd much rather play Purdue on the road and Illinois at home than the other way around. Prior to RR, we won 17 out of the previous 20 meetings with Purdue. And we've beaten them fairly easily the past two years. They are fairly low on my list of 2012 games to worry about.

  • Purdue looked awful in their bowl game, needed like 2 or 3 onside kicks just to beat Western Michigan. Illinois was a good team that was just limited by Zook's terrible play-calling and began to sort of give up towards the end of the year, but still won their bowl game against UCLA, who may not have been great but I'd still say they were a better team than WMU. Scheelhaase could be a dangerous dual threat qb with a coach who knows how to use him, Purdue had a QB by committee with no one who really stood out.

  • Took the words right out of my mouth, Rock. Montee Ball is a great running back, but a good defense can slow the Badgers down a lot when they have to lean on their running game, hence the losses to MSU and TCU in 2010.

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  • Funny, because I'd say the same thing about Wisconsin. Who did they beat in 2010 besides Ohio State?

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  • +1, you guys whooped us statistically but you didn't put us away like you should have. Extremely frustrating game to watch if I remember correctly.

    If God dwells inside us, like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting

  • How about Iowa at their place?

    If God dwells inside us, like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting

  • Iowa wasn't ranked at the end of the year, and that's the criteria you laid down. If you want to count teams that were ranked at the time of the meeting, State beat Michigan at the Big House. Both the Badgers and the Spartans were 2-2 against ranked teams at time of meeting. If you go by year-end rankings, Wisconsin was 1-2 and MSU was 1-1. Keep on spinning, though.

    This line of discussion was never about which team was better in 2010. It's about the huge question mark Wisconsin has at the quarterback position. Wilson 2011 > Tolzien 2010 > O'Brien 2012. It's really as simple as that, and there will be some dropoff this year. O'Brien could prove to be just as good as Tolzien in his senior year, but he isn't there yet. Tolzien's completion percentage was 73% in 2010. O'Brien has never completed more than 60% of his passes in college, but you think he'll help the team just as much as Tolzien did in 2010? Give me a break.

    This post was edited by fishrose 2 years ago

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  • Hahahaha, I just noticed this gem. Bell didn't go anywhere, he was a sophomore last year. Baker is the one who went to the NFL, and he was Bell's backup. And if there's nothing about that scares you about a team that returns 8 starters from a national top-10 defense, you're a fool.

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  • You're getting emotional because no one's crowning msu. Read the "sanz Bell" part. I'm not crapping my pants over anybody, nor do i think anyone should be crapping at the thought of UW. I'm saying they're all in the same conversation and have holes to fill. You sound idiotic to expect a team that lost its only worthy QB and all its receivers, plus its best Olineman (off a pretty bad line in the first place) to be crowned. Worthy's mere presence will be missed. Wisconsin's Oline did pretty well with him last year (battled to a stall), and Gholston was bottled up. The pass rush due to Worthy was what has separated MSU's defense. You can go on hoping that someone steps up as a fan, but forgive the rest before they see it to believe it. Either way, we used that top-10 defense, now without its best player. The defense wasn't the reason MSU won in the end on a fluke play, it was the MSU offense against a green UW defense.

    The part you're not getting is that UW does not need to be a team that could beat past Oregon or TCU teams in order to win the B1G this year. It also doesn't need to be as good as the last few seasons. This isn't a discussion about the last 2 years, in which Bielema is the 2-time Champion. Are you forgetting the "luck" and miracles MSU had the past few years at the end of games? They were very close to being mediocre, now they're considered good, not even close to great.

    re: O'Brien, the same things were said about Wilson last year. If you think an NFL OLine, great running game, better coaching, and a Pro-Style offense more suited to his strengths will not help him then you're hopeless. O'Brien has a better chance at a good season than Maxwell.

  • I've never said that Michigan State is a great team. They're a good team with a great defense. I'm not complaining because MSU hasn't been listed as the favorite for the Rose Bowl, I'm complaining because I think that UM, Nebraska, and MSU (and OSU, even though they're ineligible) are all going to be better teams this year.

    I'm not that worried about replacing Jerel Worthy. While Worthy will be missed as an intimidating presence at defensive tackle, Will Gholston has had another year to grow and develop. He's one of the top DEs in the country. On the other end of the line, Marcus Rush was a freshman All-American last year. Rashad White and Tyler Hoover won't get the same kind of penetration that Worthy did, but they will be able to clog up the middle and let Gholston and Rush do their work on the edges. Behind that line, Denicos Allen is an absolute monster; he finished the year with 14 sacks (6th in the nation, 2nd LB) and 18.5 tackles for loss. Between Allen, Gholston, and Rush, this defense should not have trouble getting into the backfield. Additionally, Johnny Adams was a 2nd Team All-American. Isaiah Lewis, and Max Bullough were both 2nd Team All-B1G last year. Wisconsin doesn't return anywhere near that kind of defensive talent to take the pressure off their offense.

    I'm not just being a homer here. I know and understand the question marks Michigan State is facing. Offensively, they're fairly similar to Wisconsin's. Replacing Cousins is going to be tough, and there will be a dropoff in production in the passing game. Fortunately, Maxwell has spent a great deal of time learning from Cousins, and while the WR corps is inexperienced, he has been throwing to them for three years on the scout team. There will be some chemistry in the passing game, even if the young receivers drop some balls or Maxwell throws a few picks. I'm not worried about the offensive line, either. Last year they allowed the fewest sacks in the Big Ten in the most drop-back pass heavy offenses in the conference. Four of those players are coming back, and Blake Treadwell should be able to fill Joel Foreman's shoes at LG.

    Overall, I think MSU and Wisconsin have many of the same questions on offense, but the Spartans' defense will be able to take off some pressure in a way that Wisconsin's cannot. I also think Wisconsin's QB situation is a little more serious. You can make all the comparisons you want, but Wilson and O'Brien are entirely different creatures. Wilson's arm and accuracy were questioned, but he was a very effective runner as well. O'Brien's accuracy is questionable, but he isn't the same kind of dual-threat athlete as Wilson. He played in a pro-style system under Friedgen, and his accuracy was poor there as well. Add in the sorts of bumps and hiccups that happen with ANY coaching change, multiplied by six coaches, and I just see Wisconsin having a down year. Probably 9-3 with a 10-2 ceiling, looking at their schedule. That'll be good enough to make the CCG probably, but I don't agree with the preseason blogs and magazines picking them over any of the Legends Division heavyweights for the Rose Bowl.

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  • I give this thread an 8.5 on the hater scale.

  • MSU lost its best player (the reason the DL was able to create havor, and even then they were handled pretty good by UW) and its starting safety. Pardon me for thinking that they won't have the same great defense as last year. Good maybe. There are too many questions with all teams to say that they're going to be better teams this year, I'm saying they're all in the conversation.

    You should be worried about replacing Worthy, he was the reason Gholston and other ends were able to be effective. Against UW, Gholston did nothing. The next time i'll worry about an opposing DE against UW will be a first. Worthy's presence was also the reason Allen was able to get in from the LB spot. Worthy was more than just "taking up blocks". Against a good OLine you need to create disruption, something which the current MSU DTs need to show. Wisconsin's defense was missing its best CB (Smith) and DE (Gilbert) (out for the year with injuries). The DLine was also young and inexperienced. Returning an outstanding LB core and the return of the injured players will mean an improved defense.

    Offensively they are not similar to UW and have way more questions. Wisconsin returns a better running game, Heisman candidate, better receiver core, and better TEs. I'm going to bet the OL is also going to pretty good. Wisconsin is also bringing in someone who has experience as opposed to a backup with absolutely no experience. Scout team means jack except that there is a lot of hoping going on with fans. Wisconsin doesn't need O'Brien to be a 70%+ QB, it just needs him to not make mistakes. A top rushing attack, NFL Oline, and better TEs does wonders for a QB. There are more questions with Maxwell than O'Brien.

    The 9-3 and 10-2 ceiling is what everyone without blinders on sees with the rest of the teams that are supposed to be competing for the B1G Title.

  • SpartanTailgate

    SpartanRocky

    Well, Gholston is a SDE and Allen is a SAM LB. Gholston would be the guy occupying a blocker, allowing Allen to get to the QB uninterrupted.

    When you only have to replace 2-3 starters off of a very good D, that's generally considered a good thing. As good as Worthy was, he wasn't the only playmaker on the team; 1 1st team (Adams) and 4 2nd Team All Big 10 defenders (Gholston, Bullough, Allen, Lewis) return, along with 3 Hon. Mentions (Rush, Norman, Dennard).

    Look, I think UW is going to be plenty fine next year, as is MSU. I look forward to continuing the tradition of tough, exciting games in this budding rivalry.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • I agree, i'm just trying to explain that we all have questions (some on D, some on O, some with something else) and it's not preposterous to see any one of Mich, UW, MSU, or UNL come out the winner. I could also see UW, MSU and especially UNL not be as good as Mich simply because they (uw etc.) have more questions. One can pick holes with any team if someone wants to take time out to do that.

    The point re UW is that it doesn't need to have the offense of the past few years to compete for a title.

  • SpartanTailgate

    SpartanRocky

    I agree with all that, and I'd add Purdue to the mix, just because they get UM and UW at home, plus tOSU is ineligible.

    I actually think this is going to be a very exciting year in the conference. Any one of 6 teams looks like they could end up going to the Rose Bowl. Though I don't think the league is going to produce a NC contender, it should still be a pretty intense conference battle. I don't think there's really a dud week of games once conference play starts. Heck, week 1 has tOSU @MSU, Wisconsin @Nebraska and UM @ Purdue.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • Sorry, but I just don't agree. Offense is the reason UW has been in the conference title picture the past few years. They're replacing three offensive coaches, their QB, and six other offensive starters. They're in for a down year, and OSU's ineligibility isn't going to change that.

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  • It certainly does not need to be as good as the past few years. It's going to be pretty darn good this year. The defenses this year in the league also won't be as good. Wisconsin's down year means still a very good chance at the B1G title.

  • SpartanTailgate

    SpartanRocky

    Yea, you guys could lose a TD/game off of your O last year and still have a top 3 O in the conference.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • So Wisconsin returns 4 starters on offense, replaces a coordinator, and they're still going to be "pretty darn good," but MSU returns 8 starters on defense with one of the best DCs in the country and they're going to struggle? Great logic.

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  • Wisconsin brings in a very good QB, a very good OC (who's running the same offense), returns the best stable of RBs (including a Heisman Finalist), a top producing WR, the top producing TE, and an OLine that is stocked of NFL talent. You're right, they're gonna suck. If only Bielema could figure out clock management, it could give them a slim chance.

    You really need to explain the logic behind losing the best playmaker who was THE reason everything functioned properly and a starting safety and how that means the defense is going to be as "great" as last year. I put great in quotations because UW had no issues moving the ball and scoring points against them. You're telling me losing a person that creates havoc and another good safety means nothing? Don't mean to get started on the offense...

    This post was edited by pezfez 2 years ago

  • Let me guess, you watched two State games last year?

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  • SpartanTailgate

    SpartanRocky

    Yea, gotta disagree that Worthy made "everything" happen.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.