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The Official Michigan State and Michigan Thread

  • TitanInsider

    CorchBlue

    Harry Callahan said... (original post)

    I feel bad now, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Continue on with UM fluff/MSU hate. I must go anyway.

    As long as you continue with your MSU fluff/UM hate.

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    Go Blue and Go Titans!

  • SpartanRocky said... (original post)

    Unless the uniforms affect the performance on the field, I don't care what they look like.

    Oh really? Everyone knows cotton jerseys keep players 5 degrees cooler!

  • SpartanTailgate

    steveschneider

    Ducksworth said... (original post)

    I never said the crowd has no impact. Read the post. I said it has less of an impact than it does in basketball or hockey, where the crowds are louder. I do think that the crowd matters, obviously. Read my second post in response to Rocky. It can be an advantage for the away team almost as much as the home team in some situations

    Sorry, I wasn't being clear. I meant I disagree I think in football the crowd has more of an impact than in basketball or hockey. Football is the only sport I can think of where the crowd can impact the game by forcing a QB to chew up a timeout. I've also seen crowds cause delay of games.

    Look at this...

    http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/sports/eagles-notebook-crowd-noise-affects-offensive-line-early/article_dca59191-6432-54a6-b78b-bbc2e472953c.html

    Eagles notebook: Crowd noise affects offensiv

    ST. LOUIS - The noise inside the Edward Jones Dome on Sunday hurt the Philadelphia Eagles' offensive line more than the St. Louis Rams' defense.

    http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/sports/eagles-notebook-crowd-noise-affects-offensive-line-early/article_dca59191-6432-54a6-b78b-bbc2e472953c.html
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  • Wolverine247

    Ducksworth

    steveschneider said... (original post)

    Sorry, I wasn't being clear. I meant I disagree I think in football the crowd has more of an impact than in basketball or hockey. Football is the only sport I can think of where the crowd can impact the game by forcing a QB to chew up a timeout. I've also seen crowds cause delay of games.

    Look at this...

    http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/sports/eagles-notebook-crowd-noise-affects-offensive-line-early/article_dca59191-6432-54a6-b78b-bbc2e472953c.html

    Crowds can do that in all sports, though. The student section at Yost has made several players so angry that they take unnecessary roughness penalties (couple games where players even threw sticks into the stands).

    Although you have a good point. I guess the real message is that any GOOD crowd can affect the game. There are some pretty lousy crowds, quiet as a mouse. A good crowd in hockey, football, or basketball can really help their team

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  • SpartanTailgate

    steveschneider

    Ducksworth said... (original post)

    Crowds can do that in all sports, though. The student section at Yost has made several players so angry that they take unnecessary roughness penalties (couple games where players even threw sticks into the stands).

    Although you have a good point. I guess the real message is that any GOOD crowd can affect the game. There are some pretty lousy crowds, quiet as a mouse. A good crowd in hockey, football, or basketball can really help their team

    Just read this on Wikipedia and thought it was interesting so I'm posting here...

    "The New York Giants allegedly asked the NFL to intervene in 2006 when they played the Seattle Seahawks. In their 2005 matchup at Qwest Field, the Giants incurred 11 false start penalties due to the crowd noise. For the 2006 rematch between the two teams, the NFL sent observers to verify that the Seahawks were not artificially enhancing the noise level.[15] Qwest Field in Seattle has been architecturally designed to be the loudest stadium in the NFL. This has caused 2.83 false starts per game, which is the highest in the NFL since 2005. The Decibel level at Qwest Field is a whopping 112 dB, only 18 dB below the roar of a Boeing 747.[19]"

    Unavailable

    Either this website doesn't exist or is not currently available.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_man_%28football%29
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  • steveschneider said... (original post)

    Just read this on Wikipedia and thought it was interesting so I'm posting here...

    "The New York Giants allegedly asked the NFL to intervene in 2006 when they played the Seattle Seahawks. In their 2005 matchup at Qwest Field, the Giants incurred 11 false start penalties due to the crowd noise. For the 2006 rematch between the two teams, the NFL sent observers to verify that the Seahawks were not artificially enhancing the noise level.[15] Qwest Field in Seattle has been architecturally designed to be the loudest stadium in the NFL. This has caused 2.83 false starts per game, which is the highest in the NFL since 2005. The Decibel level at Qwest Field is a whopping 112 dB, only 18 dB below the roar of a Boeing 747.[19]"

    This whole "home field advantage" argument is bizarre. Of course there is a home field advantage. Statistically, teams win more at home than on the road. Vegas gives the home team a spread advantage for a reason. Why are we debating this?

  • SpartanTailgate

    OTPT

    WingedHelmet said... (original post)

    This whole "home field advantage" argument is bizarre. Of course there is a home field advantage. Statistically, teams win more at home than on the road. Vegas gives the home team a spread advantage for a reason. Why are we debating this?

    This

    "If you're worried about Wolverine fans, just move to Pasadena. You'll never have to deal with 'em."

  • SpartanTailgate

    SpartanRocky

    Bump, because the MSU/Notre Dame thread became an MSU/UM "discussion". Again. lol

    Quick updates:

    MSU down 3 OL from the start of the season, making 7 OL injuries since Spring '11 for the Spartans.

    MSU lost 31-13 against Notre Dame as the OL looked generally inept and the play-calling was highly suspect. Defense performed fairly well in light of circumstances

    UM is 3-0 for the 3rd straight year, ranked in both polls.

    UM still searching for a true #1 RB, as Vincent Smith seems to have the nod against SDSU. Shoelaces is by far the leading rusher after carrying the ball 26 times against Eastern Michigan.

    UM should get Brandon Herron and Cam Gordon back from injury soon.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • How do you see the Michigan/MSU game going after seeing 25% of the games, Rocky. I thought you had the game as an almost guarenteed win for MSU before the season.

    I thought it was a tossup before the season and still see it that way.

  • SpartanTailgate

    SpartanRocky

    xxmgobluexx said... (original post)

    How do you see the Michigan/MSU game going after seeing 25% of the games, Rocky. I thought you had the game as an almost guarenteed win for MSU before the season.

    I thought it was a tossup before the season and still see it that way.

    If MSU's secondary continues its strong play, I still put the game as an almost guaranteed MSU win. Dennard has struggled passing in the new system, which I believe several UM fans shouted me down for saying earlier this year, and UM still doesn't have an established running game. Combine that with a pass D that held Notre Dame to under half the yards passing that they were averaging on the year, and I think MSU can really contain the UM offense.

    For all of MSU's OL woes, UM's DL hasn't had the impact this season that many thought it would, and I question their ability to take advantage of that weakness for MSU. From what I've seen, e only major difference in UM defense's is aggression; the fundamentals are a little better, but forcing TOs via aggressive blitzes has been the only major improvement from last season. That said, I do think aggressive blitz packages will lead to a couple big plays for UM's D, but having the bye (and the game being at home), should allow for MSU to plan accordingly; those plays leave rather large coverage gaps.

    It should be a good game, but I think MSU wins. I don't think UM has the front 7 to take advantage of MSU's biggest weakness, while MSU's pass D matches up with your offense's biggest weakness. That bye really helps the Spartans a lot, especially with the OL injuries.

    This post was edited by MalibuMan 3 years ago

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • SpartanRocky said... (original post)

    If MSU's secondary continues its strong play, I still put the game as an almost guaranteed MSU win. Dennard has struggled passing in the new system, which I believe several UM fans shouted me down for saying earlier this year, and UM still doesn't have an established running game. Combine that with a pass D that held Notre Dame to under half the yards passing that they were averaging on the year, and I think MSU can really contain the UM offense.

    For all of MSU's OL woes, UM's DL hasn't had the impact this season that many thought it would, and I question their ability to take advantage of that weakness for MSU. From what I've seen, e only major difference in UM defense's is aggression; the fundamentals are a little better, but forcing TOs via aggressive blitzes has been the only major improvement from last season. That said, I do think aggressive blitz packages will lead to a couple big plays for UM's D, but having the bye (and the game being at home), should allow for MSU to plan accordingly; those plays leave rather large coverage gaps.

    It should be a good game, but I think MSU wins. I don't think UM has the front 7 to take advantage of MSU's biggest weakness, while MSU's pass D matches up with your offense's biggest weakness. That bye really helps the Spartans a lot, especially with the OL injuries.

    How can you say UM doesn't have an established running game?

    I think they do and the stats back that up. The lack of experiences (senior) LBs at MSU will likely be exposed by an elite running QB.

    And, your conclusions about the MSU pass defense are based on the ND performance are based on keeping them to half of the yards they averaged in the first two games. Did it occur to you that ND threw the ball substantially less against MSU because they were winning handily and didn't need to throw downfield? Plus, ND's pass yards against MSU included some big negative pass completions.

    I don't think DRob will torch the MSU secondary, but calling the MSU secondary "strong" is a real stretch given the data to this point. That, plus UM's running game and UM will score on MSU.

    As for your analysis of the Michigan D line, the problem for UM there has been with respect to the run game. They were pressuring WMU and EMU QBs all day. The blitzes work great. I don't think MSU has an Oline that is better than MAC-level and I don't think an extra week is going to give them the experience to pick up different blitz packages (and any variations thrown in by UM).

    This post was edited by Peterklima 3 years ago

  • SpartanTailgate

    SpartanRocky

    Peterklima said... (original post)

    How can you say UM doesn't have an established running game?

    I think they do and the stats back that up. The lack of experiences (senior) LBs at MSU will likely be exposed by an elite running QB.

    And, your conclusions about the MSU pass defense are based on the ND performance are based on keeping them to half of the yards they averaged in the first two games. Did it occur to you that ND threw the ball substantially less against MSU because they were winning handily and didn't need to throw downfield? Plus, ND's pass yards against MSU included some big negative pass completions.

    I don't think DRob will torch the MSU secondary, but calling the MSU secondary "strong" is a real stretch given the data to this point. That, plus UM's running game and UM will score on MSU.

    As for your analysis of the Michigan D line, the problem for UM there has been with respect to the run game. They were pressuring WMU and EMU QBs all day. The blitzes work great. I don't think MSU has an Oline that is better than MAC-level and I don't think an extra week is going to give them the experience to pick up different blitz packages (and any variations thrown in by UM).

    1) UM does not have an established running game because you have no true threat at RB. As great as Robinson is, asking him to shoulder the load will not work come Big 10 season; look at last year. Your stats include Robinson's rushing totals, which are reduced compared to where they were last year, to go along with his decreased accuracy as a passer. Without a solid running back (or two) to take the pressure off, UM's offense becomes the Dennard Robinson show for the 2nd year in a row. I think that's been proven to be not sustainable in Big 10 play.

    2) The pass defense isn't just about total yards; they held ND to 6.2 yards/attempt, a far cry from the over 8 yards/attempt they were averaging going into the game. I do accept that ND reduced their offensive production once the game was over, but they were held to 80 total yards in the 2nd half, including either 2 or 8 yards rushing (was having problems figuring which # it is). For a team trying to "kill clock", it would seem that they were ineffective.

    Additionally, what "big negative pass completions" are you referring to? I don't recall a ND receiver being tackled for a 10 yard loss or something. Additionally sacks are deducted from the rushing total in college football, not the passing total, so I have no idea where you pulled that one from. It's very very rare in college football to have a pass play go for negative yards, and even a behind the line screen pass isn't going to lose more than a yard or two. MSU's DBs drew praise for their coverage of Floyd, who was held to half his average catches.

    3) You're talking a lot about data, but I wonder what data you're looking at regarding MSU's pass D. Going purely on stats, MSU's passing defense is 3rd nationally in yards and 15th nationally in pass efficiency D, allowing a total of 2 passing TDs in 3 games. That's after facing the #10 passing offense in the country. If that isn't considered "strong" data, then I don't know what is.

    If you'd like to make an argument that MSU hasn't faced a lot of tough competition, thus skewing their pass D #s, then we could have a discussion. But to say "the data" doesn't back up a statement that MSU's secondary is strong, when the actual #s prove the opposite point makes you look very uninformed. And further to my point, especially in terms of efficiency, it's hard to argue that MSU's pass D is not strong when they took the #10 passing O in the country and dropped it to #27 in one week.

    4) Somehow you conclude that UM will score on MSU based on the fact that Robinson will NOT torch MSU's secondary and the fact that UM can (in your opinion) run the football. That doesn't allow for the fact that UM's D should allow MSU to score as well, as MSU has a much stronger passing offense at this point.

    5) Your blitzes may have worked well in your eyes, but let's have a look at the data. UM has produced a total of 1.5 sacks in 3 games and a total of 12 TFL in 3 games (111th and 102nd nationally, respectively).

    I agree that pressures/hurries can be just as good in forcing bad throws, but UM still ranks 92nd in passing efficiency D, allowing 2/3 of passes against you to be completed at a 7.64 YPA rate. Considering anything over 7 YPA is considered "good", UM's pass D could be considered "bad" at this point Keep in mind that this is after facing the weakest teams on your schedule.

    Looking at MSU, having a veteran QB at home, with an extra week to prepare for UM should worry you.

    In terms of all the different blitz packages, Mattison's strategy reminds me quite a bit of Pat Narduzzi's in 2009. He knew our coverage was not very good, so blitzed heavily, with the idea that if MSU sat in coverage they'd be picked apart anyways, so might as well try to force a TO, get a sack or force a bad throw. I think we're seeing something very similar play out with UM, and the data appears to be backing it up. Only difference is that your blitzes don't appear to actually be getting home, as indicated by low # of sacks, TFL and a high completion %/YPA and poor passing efficiency D #s.

    This post was edited by MalibuMan 3 years ago

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • SpartanTailgate

    steveschneider

    SpartanRocky said... (original post)

    1) UM does not have an established running game because you have no true threat at RB. As great as Robinson is, asking him to shoulder the load will not work come Big 10 season; look at last year. Your stats include Robinson's rushing totals, which are reduced compared to where they were last year, to go along with his decreased accuracy as a passer. Without a solid running back (or two) to take the pressure off, UM's offense becomes the Dennard Robinson show for the 2nd year in a row. I think that's been proven to be not sustainable in Big 10 play.

    2) The pass defense isn't just about total yards; they held ND to 6.2 yards/attempt, a far cry from the over 8 yards/attempt they were averaging going into the game. I do accept that ND reduced their offensive production once the game was over, but they were held to 80 total yards in the 2nd half, including either 2 or 8 yards rushing (was having problems figuring which # it is). For a team trying to "kill clock", it would seem that they were ineffective.

    Additionally, what "big negative pass completions" are you referring to? I don't recall a ND receiver being tackled for a 10 yard loss or something. Additionally sacks are deducted from the rushing total in college football, not the passing total, so I have no idea where you pulled that one from. It's very very rare in college football to have a pass play go for negative yards, and even a behind the line screen pass isn't going to lose more than a yard or two. MSU's DBs drew praise for their coverage of Floyd, who was held to half his average catches.

    3) You're talking a lot about data, but I wonder what data you're looking at regarding MSU's pass D. Going purely on stats, MSU's passing defense is 3rd nationally in yards and 15th nationally in pass efficiency D, allowing a total of 2 passing TDs in 3 games. That's after facing the #10 passing offense in the country. If that isn't considered "strong" data, then I don't know what is.

    If you'd like to make an argument that MSU hasn't faced a lot of tough competition, thus skewing their pass D #s, then we could have a discussion. But to say "the data" doesn't back up a statement that MSU's secondary is strong, when the actual #s prove the opposite point makes you look very uninformed. And further to my point, especially in terms of efficiency, it's hard to argue that MSU's pass D is not strong when they took the #10 passing O in the country and dropped it to #27 in one week.

    4) Somehow you conclude that UM will score on MSU based on the fact that Robinson will NOT torch MSU's secondary and the fact that UM can (in your opinion) run the football. That doesn't allow for the fact that UM's D should allow MSU to score as well, as MSU has a much stronger passing offense at this point.

    5) Your blitzes may have worked well in your eyes, but let's have a look at the data. UM has produced a total of 1.5 sacks in 3 games and a total of 12 TFL in 3 games (111th and 102nd nationally, respectively).

    I agree that pressures/hurries can be just as good in forcing bad throws, but UM still ranks 92nd in passing efficiency D, allowing 2/3 of passes against you to be completed at a 7.64 YPA rate. Considering anything over 7 YPA is considered "good", UM's pass D could be considered "bad" at this point Keep in mind that this is after facing the weakest teams on your schedule.

    Looking at MSU, having a veteran QB at home, with an extra week to prepare for UM should worry you.

    In terms of all the different blitz packages, Mattison's strategy reminds me quite a bit of Pat Narduzzi's in 2009. He knew our coverage was not very good, so blitzed heavily, with the idea that if MSU sat in coverage they'd be picked apart anyways, so might as well try to force a TO, get a sack or force a bad throw. I think we're seeing something very similar play out with UM, and the data appears to be backing it up. Only difference is that your blitzes don't appear to actually be getting home, as indicated by low # of sacks, TFL and a high completion %/YPA and poor passing efficiency D #s.

    Haven't watched too many more UofM games since the ND night game.

    I'm holding off on any predictions until the OSU game. All I know is that it seems like the entire seasons we've been fixing things or something has been under repair with our FB squad. If we don't have the OL going by OSU I think we are in for some real pain all October. I think if Roushar can come up with a much more sound strategy on offense, and if we can establish a run game somehow we'll be alright.

    The one thing I've liked about our team, and feel like it will only improve through out the season is our defense.

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  • Amazing what playing an FAU and YSU, along with defending against team nursing a 2TD lead will do for your defensive statistics.

    Let's face it, State's patch OLine made up of converted kickers and punters will be able to keep Michigan's DL at bay, thanks in part to the magical bye week prior to the game.

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    HAIL

  • SpartanRocky said... (original post)

    Don't forget the cameraman at LT. He's pretty damn good.

    I thought that was the grip at LT. The unbalanced line may have me confused though.

  • SpartanTailgate

    SpartanRocky

    Due51 said... (original post)

    Amazing what playing an FAU and YSU, along with defending against team nursing a 2TD lead will do for your defensive statistics.

    Let's face it, State's patch OLine made up of converted kickers and punters will be able to keep Michigan's DL at bay, thanks in part to the magical bye week prior to the game.

    Just the same way Dennard Robinson's innovative "shot-put passing" will no doubt tear up Michigan State's over-rated secondary.

    FWIW, ND had under 100 yards passing at halftime, and finished with 160ish. I know they were "nursing a 2 TD lead", but it's not like they threw for 160 yards in the first half and did nothing in the 2nd. It's not as though ND was up 35-0 at halftime.

    Are you really discounting the benefit of having a bye week given MSU's injuries and overall youth on the OL thus far this year? And what, pray tell, about your DL makes it so formidable thus far? UM has played a schedule that's about the same as MSU's, so what does that say about your defensive statistics? MSU's are better all around, despite having to play on the road at least once. I realize that early season stats are skewed due to largely poor competition, but when you have 2 relatively equal schedules you can at least point out the relative differences between them.

    Need I add that UM's total defensive statistics have been further aided by the fact that you're missing an entire quarters worth of game-time due to the lightening strikes? Those totals, particularly the passing defense ones, are no doubt lower than they should be.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • SpartanRocky said... (original post)

    Just the same way Dennard Robinson's innovative "shot-put passing" will no doubt tear up Michigan State's over-rated secondary.

    FWIW, ND had under 100 yards passing at halftime, and finished with 160ish. I know they were "nursing a 2 TD lead", but it's not like they threw for 160 yards in the first half and did nothing in the 2nd. It's not as though ND was up 35-0 at halftime.

    Are you really discounting the benefit of having a bye week given MSU's injuries and overall youth on the OL thus far this year? And what, pray tell, about your DL makes it so formidable thus far? UM has played a schedule that's about the same as MSU's, so what does that say about your defensive statistics? MSU's are better all around, despite having to play on the road at least once. I realize that early season stats are skewed due to largely poor competition, but when you have 2 relatively equal schedules you can at least point out the relative differences between them.

    Need I add that UM's total defensive statistics have been further aided by the fact that you're missing an entire quarters worth of game-time due to the lightening strikes? Those totals, particularly the passing defense ones, are no doubt lower than they should be.

    oh Rocky, you have all the answers.

    Nevermind me. You're right on all accounts. Your OL will be fine. Your DBs are flawless. And if I didn't know better, I'd swear that was Jones and Gordon at LB.
    :lol:

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    HAIL

  • SpartanRocky said... (original post)

    Answer me honestly. Is Cam Gordon good at LB? He basically got trucked by all 3 of our RBs last year and the commentators mentioned his name a lot, and not in a good way. He played SS last year, correct?

    He played safety as a true freshman but moved to "star" "spurr" "whatever" backer last year, and in my opinion, no he's not good. If I remember, he was primarily a receiver in hs.

    But more to the point, I chide SR about State's LBs because leading up to the season, he claimed they would get about 90% of last years production from this years group. Just to clarify, he didn't think there would be a significant drop off despite replacing 4 year starters Gordon and 2-time AA Jones.

    You can spew out all the tackle stats you want, Bullough can't carry Gordons jock. He may be on a lot of tackles but they aren't at the LOS, a la Jones/Gordon.

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    HAIL

  • SpartanTailgate

    SpartanRocky

    Due51 said... (original post)

    oh Rocky, you have all the answers.

    Nevermind me. You're right on all accounts. Your OL will be fine. Your DBs are flawless. And if I didn't know better, I'd swear that was Jones and Gordon at LB. :lol:

    Oh come off it. I didn't say the DBs were flawless, or that our OL will be awesome. I think both will be enough to beat Michigan this year though, which is what we're talking about.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • SpartanTailgate

    SpartanRocky

    Due51 said... (original post)

    He played safety as a true freshman but moved to "star" "spurr" "whatever" backer last year, and in my opinion, no he's not good. If I remember, he was primarily a receiver in hs.

    But more to the point, I chide SR about State's LBs because leading up to the season, he claimed they would get about 90% of last years production from this years group. Just to clarify, he didn't think there would be a significant drop off despite replacing 4 year starters Gordon and 2-time AA Jones.

    You can spew out all the tackle stats you want, Bullough can't carry Gordons jock. He may be on a lot of tackles but they aren't at the LOS, a la Jones/Gordon.

    Right now you're right about the LBs. 3 games in and it looks like you are right. BTW, Bullough is at Jones' position and Denicos Allen is at Gordon's. Allen actually leads the team in TFL . . . .

    Care to defend Robinson's passing this year while you're at it?

    This post was edited by MalibuMan 3 years ago

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • SpartanTailgate

    steveschneider

    Due51 said... (original post)

    Amazing what playing an FAU and YSU, along with defending against team nursing a 2TD lead will do for your defensive statistics.

    Let's face it, State's patch OLine made up of converted kickers and punters will be able to keep Michigan's DL at bay, thanks in part to the magical bye week prior to the game.

    Amazing what beating teams like UMASS, UCONN, Bowling Green and Indiana did to make your QB a September Heisman winner last year. lol

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  • SpartanRocky said... (original post)

    Right now you're right about the LBs. 3 games in and it looks like you are right. BTW, Bullough is at Jones' position and Denicos Allen is at Gordon's. Allen actually leads the team in TFL . . . .

    Care to defend Robinson's passing this year while you're at it?

    No. Not at all. He's not good at sitting back and reading a D. He can sling a quick pass just fine (see the Koger and Dileo TDs last week).

    But to be clear, I'm not the one making any claims or predictions based on games against 2 deadbeats and an ass whooping on the road.

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    HAIL

  • SpartanRocky said... (original post)

    Oh come off it. I didn't say the DBs were flawless, or that our OL will be awesome. I think both will be enough to beat Michigan this year though, which is what we're talking about.

    You "think" it will be enough...

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    What you eat, don't make me shit.

  • steveschneider said... (original post)

    Amazing what beating teams like UMASS, UCONN, Bowling Green and Indiana did to make your QB a September Heisman winner last year. lol

    Well, if you can find a single claim by me using statistics from the first 3 games to predict the outcome of the M v S game, feel free. But the fact is, I made none about Robinson, our DL, our Lbs, or anyone. You'll find all such claims attributed to your boy SpartanRocky.

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    HAIL

  • TitanInsider

    CorchBlue

    steveschneider said... (original post)

    Amazing what beating teams like UMASS, UCONN, Bowling Green and Indiana did to make your QB a September Heisman winner last year. lol

    UConn won the Big East last year and went to a BCS bowl game, so they weren't a cupcake like the other games you listed.

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    Go Blue and Go Titans!