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X's and O's Reason Saban Wants No HUNH - Not bashing, explaining

  • AuburnUndercover

    gncnew

    For once let's get rid of the insults and the bashing and really look at the "why" Saban is campaigning so hard against the hurry-up.

    Saban runs a very unique defensive scheme. Most teams recruit players for generalized positions. They recruit players who's specific athletic ability match their given defensive scheme. This is a given.

    But when we talk of scheme above, we're speaking more of the 3-4 or the 4-3, the 4-2-5 or the 4-4. Each defensive coordinator has a base set from which they develop their defensive packages. So players are recruited and coached into positions like:

    - Interior lineman
    - Inside linebacker
    - Outside linebacker
    - Corner
    - Safety
    - Mike/Star/Monster/Whatever

    But here is where what Saban does is a little different. While to some extent all defensive coordinators also have plans and personnel packages for situation defense, Saban recruits explicitly for situational defense. He recruits kids specifically for 3rd and long. He has guys who are only on the team for a pass-only rushing package. He recruits guys for run stopping only on 2nd/3rd/4th and short.

    Without going deeper, he has specific personnel packages for just about every situation, and more over he has specific defenses prepared for each field situation.

    The easiest way to think of it is this: Saban runs defense more like what you'd expect an offensive coordinator to do. He doesn't move guys on and off the field based on who the offense puts out there (well, normally not) - Saban moves his players around based upon the defense he is calling. The defense he calls is based upon the situation on the field, and is then adjusted based upon an offensive situation.

    Just like an offense has a queue card of their play matrix for each situation, Saban runs his defense the same way - and the personnel are selected and substituted based upon that play call.

    His defensive calls go in this order:

    1. Down/Distance/Field Position read
    2. Defensive play call
    3. Personnel assignment
    4. Audible based upon offensive formation/personnel

    Think about it as each event needing roughly 2-4 seconds to happen.

    SOOOOO

    What the HUNH does to his system is it eliminates his ability to fluidly move his players on and off to fit the given play call. He has to make a decision in between plays of either substituting players and potentially getting caught with the wrong people for the upcoming play, or he may leave the players out there and just call the play that works but then if an audible is needed, he's got the wrong people out there for that as they most likely don't understand the play shift from that defensive call.

    Looking at the step-by-step timeline above, Saban has to pick 2 out of the three to apply, and hope for the best.

    -----

    Why this rubs him: Saban has made a career out of forcing offensive teams into a reactionary mode. Where they try to substitute or audible according to the defensive alignment. This creates confusion and mistakes which his players are readily coached to capitalize on. This is GREAT coaching.

    But when his defenses are forced to play the more traditional role of reacting to an offense and adjusting based on reads alone - and more importantly - when his PLAYERS are required to fulfill multiple duties - sever break downs occur and the defense begins to look very pedestrian.

    -----

    In summary, all the "smoke and mirrors" aside, this is an attempt to keep Saban from having to relearn defensive strategy. He's got a great system that is well oiled and easily applicable once his "system" is in place. The advent of the HUNH has rendered his system more of a weakness than a strength because he can't rely on specialized players that are fine tuned for a specific task - instead he has to create utility players that - while not experts at anything - are ready for everything.

    This makes his defense just like everybody else.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Seriously, don't take me too serious.

  • So you are saying that Saban sux and can't beat Gus without changing the rules?

    Execution, Aaron Hernandez took that ish way too seriously!

  • Saban is a bitch

    That's all you had to say

    signature image signature image
  • AuburnUndercover

    AUHeismanTrust

    Very well reasoned description.

    clap

    signature image signature image signature image

    Started at the bottom, now we here.....better get used to it.

  • Slinger said... (original post)

    So you are saying that Saban sux and can't beat Gus without changing the rules?

    Just because he wants it to happen, doesn't mean that he has the power to change them. If the change happens, it will have nothing whatsoever to do with him.

  • AuburnUndercover

    gncnew

    Vae Victis said... (original post)

    Just because he wants it to happen, doesn't mean that he has the power to change them. If the change happens, it will have nothing whatsoever to do with him.

    I both agree and disagree with you - IF it happens it will be in large part because of his support. His name carries a measure of authority on the subject since he's been so successful, hence why he and only one other coach approached the comittee.

    Now - you're right. Had this gone very quiet, I think it's very likely it would have happened. Now with all the publicity - IF they pushed this through, it has the makings to cause a true civil war in the NCAA Div-1 ranks. You'd have teams start airing out each other's dirty laundry on tv and the internet.

    There would be repercussions because disenfranchised teams would begin to feel like the NCAA no longer represented them or their interests and would take matters into their own hands.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Seriously, don't take me too serious.

  • AuburnUndercover

    gncnew

    Slinger said... (original post)

    So you are saying that Saban sux and can't beat Gus without changing the rules?

    LOL, no. I am intentionally trying not to bait the toothless here.

    I think Saban COULD adapt. I don't think Saban WANTS to adapt. I think the amount of work that would go into it isn't something he's really interested in this late in his career.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Seriously, don't take me too serious.

  • Lots of words = Saban is a coward

    signature image
  • The players could naturally slow the hunh without a problem but the ncaa made a rule that disallowed faking injuries. Why should faking an injury be illegal?

  • This rule won't slow anything because teams rarely ever snap ball within 10 seconds. This merely allows defense to prepare so that they can sub.

  • gncnew said... (original post)

    For once let's get rid of the insults and the bashing and really look at the "why" Saban is campaigning so hard against the hurry-up.

    Saban runs a very unique defensive scheme. Most teams recruit players for generalized positions. They recruit players who's specific athletic ability match their given defensive scheme. This is a given.

    But when we talk of scheme above, we're speaking more of the 3-4 or the 4-3, the 4-2-5 or the 4-4. Each defensive coordinator has a base set from which they develop their defensive packages. So players are recruited and coached into positions like:

    - Interior lineman
    - Inside linebacker
    - Outside linebacker
    - Corner
    - Safety
    - Mike/Star/Monster/Whatever

    But here is where what Saban does is a little different. While to some extent all defensive coordinators also have plans and personnel packages for situation defense, Saban recruits explicitly for situational defense. He recruits kids specifically for 3rd and long. He has guys who are only on the team for a pass-only rushing package. He recruits guys for run stopping only on 2nd/3rd/4th and short.

    Without going deeper, he has specific personnel packages for just about every situation, and more over he has specific defenses prepared for each field situation.

    The easiest way to think of it is this: Saban runs defense more like what you'd expect an offensive coordinator to do. He doesn't move guys on and off the field based on who the offense puts out there (well, normally not) - Saban moves his players around based upon the defense he is calling. The defense he calls is based upon the situation on the field, and is then adjusted based upon an offensive situation.

    Just like an offense has a queue card of their play matrix for each situation, Saban runs his defense the same way - and the personnel are selected and substituted based upon that play call.

    His defensive calls go in this order:

    1. Down/Distance/Field Position read
    2. Defensive play call
    3. Personnel assignment
    4. Audible based upon offensive formation/personnel

    Think about it as each event needing roughly 2-4 seconds to happen.

    SOOOOO

    What the HUNH does to his system is it eliminates his ability to fluidly move his players on and off to fit the given play call. He has to make a decision in between plays of either substituting players and potentially getting caught with the wrong people for the upcoming play, or he may leave the players out there and just call the play that works but then if an audible is needed, he's got the wrong people out there for that as they most likely don't understand the play shift from that defensive call.

    Looking at the step-by-step timeline above, Saban has to pick 2 out of the three to apply, and hope for the best.

    -----

    Why this rubs him: Saban has made a career out of forcing offensive teams into a reactionary mode. Where they try to substitute or audible according to the defensive alignment. This creates confusion and mistakes which his players are readily coached to capitalize on. This is GREAT coaching.

    But when his defenses are forced to play the more traditional role of reacting to an offense and adjusting based on reads alone - and more importantly - when his PLAYERS are required to fulfill multiple duties - sever break downs occur and the defense begins to look very pedestrian.

    -----

    In summary, all the "smoke and mirrors" aside, this is an attempt to keep Saban from having to relearn defensive strategy. He's got a great system that is well oiled and easily applicable once his "system" is in place. The advent of the HUNH has rendered his system more of a weakness than a strength because he can't rely on specialized players that are fine tuned for a specific task - instead he has to create utility players that - while not experts at anything - are ready for everything.

    This makes his defense just like everybody else.

    If what you are saying is true, saban is doing nothing different than the vast majority of coaches out there. Recruiting specific players for specific needs. Once you get past the idea that he does anything unique you will be better off. His defense got lit up by two offenses that he had no answer for. It happens all the time

  • AuburnUndercover

    gncnew

    ReasonableDoubt said... (original post)

    The players could naturally slow the hunh without a problem but the ncaa made a rule that disallowed faking injuries. Why should faking an injury be illegal?

    Is this for real?

    Because faking an injury is essentially breaking the intent of the rules as they are. The game stops for player safety and well being. If we allow players to fake injury with no repercussion, then you'd have to stop attending to REAL injuries as they should be.

    This is the same reason the NFL added the 10 second run-off for penalties in the 4th under 2 mins. To keep teams from gaining clock stoppages outside of their time outs. It's cheating.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Seriously, don't take me too serious.

  • AuburnUndercover

    gncnew

    joe bananas said... (original post)

    If what you are saying is true, saban is doing nothing different than the vast majority of coaches out there. Recruiting specific players for specific needs. Once you get past the idea that he does anything unique you will be better off. His defense got lit up by two offenses that he had no answer for. It happens all the time

    the two he got lit up by just happen to run the same scheme... come on now brother, you believe in coincidences like that?

    All coaches do this to a point, Saban does it AS THE point.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Seriously, don't take me too serious.

  • 1. You think one man is powerful enough to create an entire rule? Then you worship Saban more than bammers

    2. This rule won't allow Saban to do any adjusting, there isn't enough time. It merely allows new defensive players to rush onto the field.

  • gncnew said... (original post)

    Is this for real?

    Because faking an injury is essentially breaking the intent of the rules as they are. The game stops for player safety and well being. If we allow players to fake injury with no repercussion, then you'd have to stop attending to REAL injuries as they should be.

    This is the same reason the NFL added the 10 second run-off for penalties in the 4th under 2 mins. To keep teams from gaining clock stoppages outside of their time outs. It's cheating.

    But it wasn't illegal before. It was made illegal to help hunh offenses operate. You don't have to stop attending real injuries, but it will alter the ability of offense to control pace.

    If the no faking injury rule only applied during the final two minutes you'd have a point.

  • Meh. Outside of FSU, Bama has the most talented two deep on defense in America. Saban has too much talent on that side of the ball to be doing this much crying.

    What sanctions? Our 75 are better than your 85.

  • gncnew said... (original post)

    the two he got lit up by just happen to run the same scheme... come on now brother, you believe in coincidences like that?

    All coaches do this to a point, Saban does it AS THE point.

    What that tells me is his refusal to acknowledge that he may need to change. Hes going down the same path with the same result

  • Action Figure said... (original post)

    Meh. Outside of FSU, Bama has the most talented two deep on defense in America. Saban has too much talent on that side of the ball to be doing this much crying.

    One of the big goals of hunh is to get rid of any advantage you have from depth by not allowing those players to sub in. This won't slow the offense up but it'll really allow the two deep to matter.

  • ReasonableDoubt said... (original post)

    1. You think one man is powerful enough to create an entire rule? Then you worship Saban more than bammers

    2. This rule won't allow Saban to do any adjusting, there isn't enough time. It merely allows new defensive players to rush onto the field.

    1: People are laying it on Saban because he is the biggest target. This is really an attempt by a couple of coaches who don't use tempo as a weapon to take it away from those that do.

    2: I disagree. 10 seconds is more than enough time when you know it is coming. The 10 second delay would also let the defense disguise coverage again as they would have time to shift instead of just racing to their positions on the field.

  • AuburnUndercover

    gncnew

    ReasonableDoubt said... (original post)

    1. You think one man is powerful enough to create an entire rule? Then you worship Saban more than bammers

    2. This rule won't allow Saban to do any adjusting, there isn't enough time. It merely allows new defensive players to rush onto the field.

    1. The "Bump" rule is all about Saban, one man made a rule

    2. Currently the other team has about 2 seconds to change people out if the offense doesn't substitute. With a 10 second mandate between plays... yep, pretty sure that's giving him more time.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Seriously, don't take me too serious.

  • Good Lord...definitely did not read that novel. The only issue at stake is substitution. Saban wants an opportunity to substitute on defense. Offensive coaches want to limit it because it's an advantage for the offense. Most of these teams do not snap the ball with 10 seconds anyways. They run to the LOS and the entire offense looks to the sideline for the play. The threat of snapping it quickly keeps the defenses from subbing. Giving 10 seconds for defensive subs will not slow the game down. This has always been about allowing substitutions as opposed to letting offenses prevent it.

  • AuburnUndercover

    gncnew

    joe bananas said... (original post)

    What that tells me is his refusal to acknowledge that he may need to change. Hes going down the same path with the same result

    And such, he's trying to change the rules rather than change his path... you just validated the whole point.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Seriously, don't take me too serious.

  • AuburnUndercover

    gncnew

    ReasonableDoubt said... (original post)

    One of the big goals of hunh is to get rid of any advantage you have from depth by not allowing those players to sub in. This won't slow the offense up but it'll really allow the two deep to matter.

    I disagree only from the standpoint that Auburn was able to sub def linemen out every game and had fresh guys come the 4th quarter because of it. And we played several HUNH teams.

    It's not the ability to sub out - it's the inability to sub in specific guys for a complex play call and make sure you've got it all right.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Seriously, don't take me too serious.

  • AuburnUndercover

    gncnew

    bamabum5 said... (original post)

    Good Lord...definitely did not read that novel. The only issue at stake is substitution. Saban wants an opportunity to substitute on defense. Offensive coaches want to limit it because it's an advantage for the offense. Most of these teams do not snap the ball with 10 seconds anyways. They run to the LOS and the entire offense looks to the sideline for the play. The threat of snapping it quickly keeps the defenses from subbing. Giving 10 seconds for defensive subs will not slow the game down. This has always been about allowing substitutions as opposed to letting offenses prevent it.

    So the defense should always be allowed to sub? Wow, what about the 2 minute drill, guess THAT's destroying the game? Or is it ok to run HUNH as long as there is less than 2 minutes to go?

    11 seconds on the clock, easily enough time to run two plays if one is a first down... NOPE, not any more boys and girls, Saban needs to sub.

    AND more importantly, a NOVEL?? really... jezz dude. It's like 3 paragraphs. Takes a 6th grader one whole minute to read.

    Oh, shit, sorry, just saw your screen name.

    This post was edited by gncnew 2 months ago

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    Seriously, don't take me too serious.

  • Bucknuts

    Jagstyle

    Saban's D got run up & down the field by a mediocre frosh QB (Trevor Knight), basically embarrassed on national TV in a BCS game. Can you imagine what the result will be when he has to face a decent frosh QB with a tempo gameplan.

    Saban has no choice but to get the rules changed.

  • gncnew said... (original post)

    And such, he's trying to change the rules rather than change his path... you just validated the whole point.

    If your point was to say that saban lacks the wherewithall to figure it out on his own like the other 119 coaches, that he would rather throw fits and cry to people that may listen to him, then yes i do agree with you. Im glad i could help validate your point