The Blue Board

You're totally missing his point. If you believe in predestination then you have no say in whether or not you're going to heaven or hell. It's been decided before you were even born.

its funny because that verse is about those people that say they know and follow god but were wrong the entire time.

I really don't know why people think that believing in a god gives their life any more purpose than not believing in a god. What purpose is there in believing in god. Don't say believing in god or you lose.

I respect some of it so much even if I don't adhere, it's just some people make it so hard to like. I coach middle school aged basketball at a local baptist church and the head coach and myself split the cost of our jerseys so more kids can participate and most other coaches do to. There is scripture after practices and games which I quietly sit through but more importantly it gives kids whose parents work full time a role model or atleast a person to instill structure in a life through sports. Nobody that works at the church has any issue with a heathen like myself being around the kids.

I honestly don't know the pre Jesus requirements to get into heaven. That of course is laid out in the old testament. All the rules changes when Jesus died on the cross, and was resurrected.

I think the thief on the cross illustrated that point, he believed in Jesus, and Jesus told him, you'll be with me in paradise this very day. I think that was the transition from works to faith by salvation.

Now, if you are discussing the need for baptism with a christian that believes you must be baptized to go to heaven, if you bring up the thief on the cross, either duck or run.

You've read the Bible? That's great!
I will also post this verse.

James 2:20 NKJV
'But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?'

Not sure how this relates to the point I was making. Sounds like you as an unbeliever are doing the same thing as the believers in providing a role model for younger kids. The only difference is they say a prayer while they are doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk

Great video that addresses this in game show form.

By the way, yes I've read the bible cover to cover three times. It's what made me an atheist. Properly read, the bible is the most powerful tool to aid in the realization that the people who wrote the bible and founded Christianity didn't have the slightest idea what was going on in the world.

Here are some fun bible contradictions on faith v works:
“If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’…. It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.”
—Romans 4:2,3,13 (NIV)

“Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,’ and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”
—James 2:21-24 (NIV)

“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin…. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.”
—Romans 3:20,28 (NIV, emphasis added)

“All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.”
—Romans 2:12,13 (NIV, emphasis added)

“Jesus answered, ‘If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.’”
—Matthew 19:21

"For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."-
Ephesians 2:8,9

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
-Romans 3:20,28

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
-Galatians 2:16

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."
-Matthew 19:16-21

"But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." (Deuteronomy 22: 20-21)

"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."(Deuteronomy 23:1)

"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters."(Leviticus 26:27-30)

"...thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness." (Leviticus 18:19)

"Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother." (Mark 12:19)

"For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken. No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God." (Leviticus 21:18-21)

There are a few that don't exactly jive with the whole Jesus "try not to be a prick" message.

Eye for an eye was changed to turn the other cheek, right?

So, in other words, god set us up with a standard he knew we could not meet, then punishes us for not meeting that standard unless we declare him righteous? And this is moral because?

I appreciate the response, but the whole "only god knows god's mind" rationale could justify ANYTHING a creator does from a school shooting to a holocaust and hold it in moral standing.

It is, at least to me, no more different than those sporting front offices (like the Oakland Raiders) who make terrible picks, then have their fans defend them by saying something like, "you think you know better than a coach?"