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Govt budget question?

  • dgoz said...

    with 17 trillion dollars saved in the private sector, i would say all we need is some new products with a plan on how to organize and we are ready to roll.

    LOL. Good lord.

    TroyTide

  • panic1013 said...

    What would the effective tax rate per person have to be in order for no cuts to be necessary?

    This is a complicated simple question LOL...

    There are around 100,000,000 million households in America.

    The 2013 deficit is $900 Billion...

    So if each Household payed an additional $9,000 this year...

    Annual Deficit is payed off.

    However...Income taxes are less than 50% of reciepts...

    And... Around a 33% of the current annual deficit is the result of economic activity (Less tax revenue)

    And about 20% is due to government spending to fight the recession.

    So... if the economy was "back to normal" a big chunk ($300-$400billion) of that $900 billion goes away

    Then... cutting spending cuts another chunk

    And then... Citizens are going to have to either pay more taxes, or accept changes to Medicare, Social Security, and other government programs.

    Of course we need to get to a point of having a Annual Surplus of $200 billion or so annually to start paying off part of the deficit too.

    rms02d

  • rms02d said...

    This is a complicated simple question LOL...

    There are around 100,000,000 million households in America.

    The 2013 deficit is $900 Billion...

    So if each Household payed an additional $9,000 this year...

    Annual Deficit is payed off.

    However...Income taxes are less than 50% of reciepts...

    And... Around a 33% of the current annual deficit is the result of economic activity (Less tax revenue)

    And about 20% is due to government spending to fight the recession.

    So... if the economy was "back to normal" a big chunk ($300-$400billion) of that $900 billion goes away

    Then... cutting spending cuts another chunk

    And then... Citizens are going to have to either pay more taxes, or accept changes to Medicare, Social Security, and other government programs.

    Of course we need to get to a point of having a Annual Surplus of $200 billion or so annually to start paying off part of the deficit too.

    Government isn't spending 20% to fight the recession. Govt spending is part of the economy. GDP = government spending + consumer spending + business investment + trade balance.

    dgoz ●

  • dgoz said...

    Government isn't spending 20% to fight the recession. Govt spending is part of the economy. GDP = government spending + consumer spending + business investment + trade balance.

    Yeah I computed GDPs in my forecasting class many years ago too.

    That being said, around 10%-20% of the current spending is temporary

    You may have heard of a guy named John Maynard Keynes that could explain how that temporary spending works in theory.

    rms02d

  • rms02d said...

    Yeah I computed GDPs in my forecasting class many years ago too.

    That being said, around 10%-20% of the current spending is temporary

    You may have heard of a guy named John Maynard Keynes that could explain how that temporary spending works in theory.

    Sorry, misread your original post to mean something else.

    dgoz ●

  • Debt rising. Deficit dropping.

    Keith Niebuhr ●

  • Keynes and his economic theories are less useful than port-a-john toilet paper.

    signature image

    menichols74 ●

  • menichols74 said...

    Keynes and his economic theories are less useful than port-a-john toilet paper.

    I'd argue it's the supply-siders that are running for cover right now.

    Keith Niebuhr ●

  • rms02d said...

    This is a complicated simple question LOL...

    There are around 100,000,000 million households in America.

    The 2013 deficit is $900 Billion...

    So if each Household payed an additional $9,000 this year...

    Annual Deficit is payed off.

    However...Income taxes are less than 50% of reciepts...

    And... Around a 33% of the current annual deficit is the result of economic activity (Less tax revenue)

    And about 20% is due to government spending to fight the recession.

    So... if the economy was "back to normal" a big chunk ($300-$400billion) of that $900 billion goes away

    Then... cutting spending cuts another chunk

    And then... Citizens are going to have to either pay more taxes, or accept changes to Medicare, Social Security, and other government programs.

    Of course we need to get to a point of having a Annual Surplus of $200 billion or so annually to start paying off part of the deficit too.

    This is an outrageously complicated question, because there are a million ways to increase taxes. If we are talking strictly income taxes, you could do it a few ways.

    1. Increase rates at a flat level
    2. Increase rates progressively

    I don't think anyone would be for #1. I don't even think most liberals are interested in #2.

    Honestly, the easiest way to increase tax revenues is to target capital gains tax rates (which are like 15%) and corporate tax rates (which are also outrageously low such that many large corps. aren't paying taxes at all).

    ramssuperbowl99

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    This is an outrageously complicated question, because there are a million ways to increase taxes. If we are talking strictly income taxes, you could do it a few ways.

    1. Increase rates at a flat level
    2. Increase rates progressively

    I don't think anyone would be for #1. I don't even think most liberals are interested in #2.

    Honestly, the easiest way to increase tax revenues is to target capital gains tax rates (which are like 15%) and corporate tax rates (which are also outrageously low such that many large corps. aren't paying taxes at all).

    You do realize the US has higher corporate tax rates than average

    It'd be much easier and cheaper to collect a national sales tax.

    signature image signature image signature image

    panic1013

  • panic1013 said...

    You do realize the US has higher corporate tax rates than average

    It'd be much easier and cheaper to collect a national sales tax.

    Yep, but the effective corporate tax rate (what corporations pay after deductions or loopholes, whichever you want to call them) are the lowest they have been in decades. And the effective rate is really the only one that matters.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204662204577199492233215330.html

    ramssuperbowl99

  • panic1013 said...

    You do realize the US has higher corporate tax rates than average

    It'd be much easier and cheaper to collect a national sales tax.

    National sales taxes are incredibly regressive. You'd have a very hard time selling that to the vast majority of the population.

    signature image signature image signature image

    CMXI ●

  • Easy thing to do would be cut all the free hand outs. Cut all the social programs. USA was it its strongest in the early 1900s before that all existed.

    twitter: nszullo

    DCHokie88 ●

  • Keith Niebuhr said...

    Debt rising. Deficit dropping.

    yep.

    attachment

    dgoz ●

  • Let us not forget the REAL debt crisis

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by dgoz on 2/28/2013 at 10:20 AM

    Chart of the day: Public vs. private US debt to GDP ratios | Real-World Economics Review Blog on WordPress.com

    Posts are by authors of papers published in the RWER. Anyone may comment.

    rwer.wordpress.com

    dgoz ●

  • CMXI said...

    National sales taxes are incredibly regressive. You'd have a very hard time selling that to the vast majority of the population.

    I agree. I was only saying that capital gains / corporate tax are not by any means the easiest way to increase revenue

    signature image signature image signature image

    panic1013

  • DCHokie88 said...

    Easy thing to do would be cut all the free hand outs. Cut all the social programs. USA was it its strongest in the early 1900s before that all existed.

    The vast majority of entitlement programs go to supporting the elderly, the disabled, or working households.

    I have no problem eliminating waste or fraudulent abuses of the system, but to cut all social programs is nonsense and absolutely ridiculous. You'd be throwing some of the most vulnerable members of our society out on the street.

    Contrary to

    Non-partisan research and policy institute working on federal and state fiscal policies and public programs that affect low- and moderate-income Americans

    www.cbpp.org
    signature image signature image signature image

    CMXI ●

  • Keith Niebuhr said...

    I'd argue it's the supply-siders that are running for cover right now.

    Why?

    We haven't had a true free market in a long, long time.

    Artificial adjustments in a fiat currency system
    Interest rate not being dictatated by the market
    Gov't encouraged/strong armed lending to unqualified buyers - housing bubble
    Gov't bail out of X number of companies/industries - not letting bankruptcy run its course and allow the companies to "trim the fat"
    Progressive Tax structure with over 70K pages that allows those on the low end to pay nothing (no skin in the game - buy votes) and the very wealthy to buy a new page in the tax code to add a loophole to lower their effective tax rate
    ...

    The free market/Austrian economics works every time you don't try to monkey with it. People have to accept that their will be miserable failures in life and grand successes; gov't must stop coddling the fools and limiting the talented.

    signature image

    menichols74 ●

  • menichols74 said...

    Why?

    We haven't had a true free market in a long, long time.

    Artificial adjustments in a fiat currency system
    Interest rate not being dictatated by the market
    Gov't encouraged/strong armed lending to unqualified buyers - housing bubble
    Gov't bail out of X number of companies/industries - not letting bankruptcy run its course and allow the companies to "trim the fat"
    Progressive Tax structure with over 70K pages that allows those on the low end to pay nothing (no skin in the game - buy votes) and the very wealthy to buy a new page in the tax code to add a loophole to lower their effective tax rate
    ...

    The free market/Austrian economics works every time you don't try to monkey with it. People have to accept that their will be miserable failures in life and grand successes; gov't must stop coddling the fools and limiting the talented.

    Lol

    signature image signature image signature image

    "A political call, the fall guy accord...We can't afford to be neutral on a moving train..."

    BamaLivesFootba ●

  • CMXI said...

    The vast majority of entitlement programs go to supporting the elderly, the disabled, or working households.

    I have no problem eliminating waste or fraudulent abuses of the system, but to cut all social programs is nonsense and absolutely ridiculous. You'd be throwing some of the most vulnerable members of our society out on the street.

    Social Security - phase it out. If you're under 30, you get back what you put it (no interest), but we take no more SS tax and you get nothing (save for yourself - mattress, CD, stocks... your choice). If your 30 - 65/retirement, you can choose to opt out (same deal as under 30) or stick with what we have now. Over 65/retired, status quo.

    Any money from various programs going to poor - set a time limit. If you can't take care of you children, they are taken from you (foster/adoption/state orphanage/go to family member/friend who can take care of them). $0 in benefits or tax breaks for having children, this is a choice, not a necessity. Bottom line, if you can't afford it, don't buy it (this applies to kids, cars, homes, etc.

    Scrutinize the hell out of all payments to the disabled. My best friend in college had a job as the SS office and his daily stories were horrific. He had to make kids come in monthly with MS to show that they were still diabled and couldn't deny it to a mom with "hyperactive" kids that shoved candy down their throats in the waiting room.

    End all foreign aid unless there is a proven and viable interest now (don't really want to end aid to Pakistan until we get our guys out of Afghanistan - then do it).

    Eliminate the Dept of Education and send the money to the states directly (cut some of the overhead) with a timetable to reduce taxes in year X (say 5 years from now) the equates to what they take for the DOEd. States should raise their taxes by the cut ammount (ie further eliminate the middle man). The states could then do the same to the local gov'ts with a small reserve kept to ensure that poor area K-12s get adequate funding.

    Look at Article 1 - section 8 of the constitution and if it isn't mentioned there, cut it/phase it out. If you like the program that isn't covered, propose an amendment. We need a project manager type to look at the budget and use the Constitution as the contract (which it is) and combine that with a flat tax or a consumption tax with pre-bates up to poverty level.

    Immigration - no benefits of any kind for illegals, lose business license for knowingly hiring them... but make it easier to immigrate if you have a clean background and make immigrants ineligible for gov't benefits for X years. All gov't publications/tests... are in english only (other than basic life safety). I am not a xenophobe, I welcome all to add to our melting pot, but I am not going to change the type of pot or the temperature to suit your needs. Understand what our country was founded on and come if you embrace personal freedom (and the responsibility that goes with it), stay out if you don't (this applies to those born here as well).

    ...

    This post was edited by menichols74 on 2/28/2013 at 9:39 PM

    signature image

    menichols74 ●

  • BamaLivesFootba said...

    Lol

    BLF, I will wait until you age some more and hope that you grow a bit more fiscally conservative as you age (most do).

    I will give you the "every time" bit is a stretch as are virtually all absolute statements.

    This post was edited by menichols74 on 2/28/2013 at 11:02 AM

    signature image

    menichols74 ●

  • menichols74 said...

    BLF, I will wait until you age some more and hope that you grow a bit more fiscally conservative as you age (most do).

    I will give you the "every time" bit is a stretch as are virtually all absolute statements.

    There has never been nor will there ever be a perfect free market therefore all that Austrian circle-jerk nonsense is complete BS.

    signature image signature image signature image

    "A political call, the fall guy accord...We can't afford to be neutral on a moving train..."

    BamaLivesFootba ●

  • BamaLivesFootba said...

    There has never been nor will there ever be a perfect free market therefore all that Austrian circle-jerk nonsense is complete BS.

    I'll give you that (never be a perfect free market), but I think that we should bias as close as we can to that and accept that some will fail and not use the "gun" of the IRS to hold the successful up to pay for the failures.

    I would venture that early markets (ex take your eggs to market and barter/trade for wool or ...) were darn near a perfect free market. The problem with this system was that you may have to trade your eggs for wool and trade that for milk and trade that for ... in order to get the cart you wanted in the first place. Thus idea of money and the perversion begins...

    signature image

    menichols74 ●

  • Banks don't want a commodity currency. They can't loan chickens and eggs that they don't have AND charge interest for them.

    dgoz ●

  • menichols74 said...

    Social Security - phase it out. If you're under 30, you get back what you put it (no interest), but we take no more SS tax and you get nothing (save for yourself - mattress, CD, stocks... your choice). If your 30 - 65/retirement, you can choose to opt out (same deal as under 30) or stick with what we have now. Over 65/retired, status quo.

    Any money from various programs going to poor - set a time limit. If you can't take care of you children, they are taken from you (foster/adoption/state orphanage/go to family member/friend who can take care of them). $0 in benefits or tax breaks for having children, this is a choice, not a necessity. Bottom line, if you can't afford it, don't buy it (this applies to kids, cars, homes, etc.

    Scrutinize the hell out of all payments to the disabled. My best friend in college had a job as the SS office and his daily stories were horrific. He had to make kids come in monthly with MS to show that they were still diabled and couldn't deny it to a mom with "hyperactive" kids that shoved candy down their throats in the waiting room.

    End all foreign aid unless their is a proven and viable interest now (don't really want to end aid to Pakistan until we get our guys out of Afghanistan - then do it).

    Eliminate the Dept of Education and send the money to the states directly (cut some of the overhead) with a timetable to reduce taxes in year X (say 5 years from now) the equates to what they take for the DOEd. States should raise their taxes by the cut ammount (ie further eliminate the middle man). The states could then do the same to the local gov'ts with a small reserve kept to ensure that poor area K-12s get adequate funding.

    Look at Article 1 - section 8 of the constitution and if it isn't mentioned there, cut it/phase it out. If you like the program that isn't covered, propose an amendment. We need a project manager type to look at the budget and use the Constitution as the contract (which it is) and combine that with a flat tax or a consumption tax with pre-bates up to poverty level.

    Immigration - no benefits of any kind for illegals, lose business license for knowingly hiring them... but make it easier to immigrate if you have a clean background and make immigrants ineligible for gov't benefits for X years. All gov't publications/tests... are in english only (other than basic life safety). I am not a xenophobe, I welcome all to add to our melting pot, but I am not going to change the type of pot or the temperature to suit your needs. Understand what our country was founded on and come if you embrace personal freedom (and the responsibility that goes with it), stay out if you don't (this applies to those born here as well).

    ...

    Sums it up pretty nicely.

    twitter: nszullo

    DCHokie88 ●

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