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ITT tell me...

  • getmyjive11 said...

    And you base that on what facts?

    Facts please, not speculation.

    He has no facts, you and I both know this.

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    ‏@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS

    Texas Lion

  • Guys, don't bother with devidee. He's not worth the effort of typing.

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    psubills62

  • getmyjive11 said...

    And you base that on what facts?

    Facts please, not speculation.

    The fact that Jerry Sandusky is a pedophile who directly used Penn State football and it's facitilities to abuse children.

    Again, are you telling me that you believe '02 was the first time Sandusky abused a child. The man was taking children to bowl games. He was introducing kids to players. Giving them jerseys. This went on for years. These are all facts.

    To believe Paterno knew nothing is an insult to the man's intelligence.

    This post was edited by devidee on 6/14/2012 at 12:07 PM

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    devidee ●

  • usctrojan1 said...

    Statistics attest to this. Pedophiles are everywhere children are...that is where they fight to be, using every trick in the book to appear benign and loving.

    I for one taught my girls to report any inappropriate behavior or uncomfortable interest to me, and rather it be a family member, neighbor, clergy, anyone..I would step in with righteous mother rage, and no one, or no relationship would stand in my way to going to the authorities.

    If it was any child I saw with Sandusky I would have killed him, or done my best to.

    However the person who saw didn't, and the sick demente person gets his chance in court.

    signature image signature image signature image

    ‏@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS

    Texas Lion

  • usctrojan1 said...

    I believe it's always right and reasonable to let the dust settle before making assumptions...the media and those that love scandal - as long as it isn't their own institution, will spin things any way they wish to sell readers or express their self-righteous disdain.

    Although this is a horrific situation, and it appears many are guilty as sin...consider who our outrage is direct to on this forum...people who had nothing to do with these grave sins. I suppose the Penn State fans are hoping for any sign that someone, anyone, did the right thing, or sincerely tried to. Can you blame them? Reality may end up a very harsh blow...God help them, that will be worse than anything the NCAA may bring down on them.

    It's horrible right now. Our University, the people we put in charge of caring for and running our University, is seemingly responsible for enabling a child pedophile for at least a decade. Right now, I don't think anyone did anything remotely correct, except the possible exception of MM and JoePa, because they at least reported the incident immediatly to the people responsible for dealing with this stuff. I can absolutely see an argument for being crtical of those two for not doing more - but I don't know what I'd do in their positions. It's obvious Mike had doubts about what he saw, because he told different people different thnigs. You consider that Jerry is a life long mentor and family friend of his (the two families both lived in State College), and I can't imagine what my reaction would be to seeing something like that. It's horrifying.

    What's not up for debate is that University failed - and possibly in a criminal manner. The reprecussions on my school are going to be felt for decades onwards. The law suits, the money lost, so many things.

    The one thing I hope it does is that it changes the reporting laws going forward. You can not simply sit on this stuff without being very thourough in cleaning the person i question of the allegations. Not a University, which is supposed to be a haven for kids.

    EDIT

    The worst thing, as a Penn Stater? I can't blame a single parent out there, thinking about sending their child to college, having serious reservations about sending their kid Penn State based "Would I want my child associated with a University that's eyebrow deep in a child sex scandal?". That is the ultimate punishment for us. This is a stigma we're going to carry for a long time - and sadly it's well deserved.

    This post was edited by appoo on 6/14/2012 at 12:11 PM

    Black Shoes. Basic Blues. No Name. All Game.

    appoo

  • devidee said...

    The fact that Jerry Sandusky is a pedophile who directly used Penn State football and it's facitilities to abuse children.

    Again, are you telling me that you believe '02 was the first time Sandusky abused a child. The man was taking children to bowl games. He was introducing kids to players. Giving them jerseys. This went on for years. These are all facts.

    To believe Paterno knew nothing is an insult to the man's intelligence.

    Those are all facts, but none of them back up the assumptions you're trying to make.

    I don't believe '02 was the first time, or even '99 was the time.

    The reason I brought up his education and his intelligence was to highlight the fact that saying he was a shell of himself would be putting it kindly. He was on auto-pilot for quite a few years, and when that happens things start to go mentally.

    He may have been with it enough to know at the time, but we don't and won't know if that's the case.

    signature image signature image signature image

    ‏@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS

    Texas Lion

  • devidee said...

    The fact that Jerry Sandusky is a pedophile who directly used Penn State football and it's facitilities to abuse children.

    Again, are you telling me that you believe '02 was the first time Sandusky abused a child. The man was taking children to bowl games. He was introducing kids to players. Giving them jerseys. This went on for years. These are all facts.

    To believe Paterno knew nothing is an insult to the man's intelligence.

    Have you read the testimonies of these victims? Sandusky took them to the facilities after hours when people were gone. He did this under the disguise of his charity and he preyed on kids from broken homes.

    There are a hell of a lot of people who were fooled by Jerry Sandusky. That is not even debateable.

    getmyjive11

  • Texas Lion said...

    Those are all facts, but none of them back up the assumptions you're trying to make.

    I don't believe '02 was the first time, or even '99 was the time.

    The reason I brought up his education and his intelligence was to highlight the fact that saying he was a shell of himself would be putting it kindly. He was on auto-pilot for quite a few years, and when that happens things start to go mentally.

    He may have been with it enough to know at the time, but we don't and won't know if that's the case.

    One thing I will say is that I don't believe you can use Joe's age as a reason for not being aware. He had his full faculties about him in 2001, and he was aware of what McQuery was telling him - that he was doing something possibly wrong with a child in the shower. That's WHY he called Curley and Schultz to meet with McQuery, and launch and investigation.

    Joe's MO has always been to back off legal issues, and to not influence the legal process. Judges and police have been interviewed the last few months since Joe passed away, and they all say that not once has Joe approached them to influence the lagal process for or against one of his players. He didn't feel it was his area to interfere. As he told the Washington Post, he didn't follow up with Curley and Schultz, because he didn't want to influence the process for or against Sandusky, and he didn't feel he had the expertese to deal with the situation, and ultimately because he had worked with these people for 16 years without any kind of problem, and trusted them to do their jobs. One a situation this grave, you ask why he didn't follow up, but you can't make the argument that he didn't follow up because he was old and losing his mind.

    This post was edited by appoo on 6/14/2012 at 12:22 PM

    Black Shoes. Basic Blues. No Name. All Game.

    appoo

  • getmyjive11 said...

    Have you read the testimonies of these victims? Sandusky took them to the facilities after hours when people were gone. He did this under the disguise of his charity and he preyed on kids from broken homes.

    There are a hell of a lot of people who were fooled by Jerry Sandusky. That is not even debateable.

    Sandusky took boys to bowl games. He took boys to practice. He introduced them to players. He got them tickets to games.

    signature image

    devidee ●

  • devidee said...

    Sandusky took boys to bowl games. He took boys to practice. He introduced them to players. He got them tickets to games.

    Yes, under the 2nd mile.

    getmyjive11

  • appoo said...

    One thing I will say is that I don't believe you can use Joe's age as a reason for not being aware. He had his full faculties about him in 2001, and he was aware of what McQuery was telling him - that he was doing something possibly wrong with a child in the shower. That's WHY he called Curley and Schultz to meet with McQuery, and launch and investigation.

    Joe's MO has always been to back off legal issues, and to not influence the legal process. Judges and police have been interviewed the last few months since Joe passed away, and they all say that not once has Joe approached them to influence the lagal process for or against one of his players. He didn't feel it was his area to interfere. As he told the Washington Post, he didn't follow up with Curley and Schultz, because he didn't want to influence the process for or against Sandusky, and he didn't feel he had the expertese to deal with the situation, and ultimately because he had worked with these people for 16 years without any kind of problem, and trusted them to do their jobs. One a situation this grave, you ask why he didn't follow up, but you can't make the argument that he didn't follow up because he was old and losing his mind.

    I brought his age up initially in the discussion about how he "defended" himself in November after Sandusky was charged.

    In 2001, he was fully capable mentally.

    getmyjive11

  • TLion, Jive...you both know the kind of person Joe was. Someone who dedicated his entire career to making life better for those around them, and especially for the students at Penn State. 60 years, millions of dollars, and countless hours dedicated to that cause.

    You are arguing with someone who is accusing Joe of willfully enabling someone to hurt children in the worst possible way.

    Black Shoes. Basic Blues. No Name. All Game.

    appoo

  • appoo said...

    It's horrible right now. Our University, the people we put in charge of caring for and running our University, is seemingly responsible for enabling a child pedophile for at least a decade. Right now, I don't think anyone did anything remotely correct, except the possible exception of MM and JoePa, because they at least reported the incident immediatly to the people responsible for dealing with this stuff. I can absolutely see an argument for being crtical of those two for not doing more - but I don't know what I'd do in their positions. It's obvious Mike had doubts about what he saw, because he told different people different thnigs. You consider that Jerry is a life long mentor and family friend of his (the two families both lived in State College), and I can't imagine what my reaction would be to seeing something like that. It's horrifying.

    What's not up for debate is that University failed - and possibly in a criminal manner. The reprecussions on my school are going to be felt for decades onwards. The law suits, the money lost, so many things.

    The one thing I hope it does is that it changes the reporting laws going forward. You can not simply sit on this stuff without being very thourough in cleaning the person i question of the allegations. Not a University, which is supposed to be a haven for kids.

    EDIT

    The worst thing, as a Penn Stater? I can't blame a single parent out there, thinking about sending their child to college, having serious reservations about sending their kid Penn State based "Would I want my child associated with a University that's eyebrow deep in a child sex scandal?". That is the ultimate punishment for us. This is a stigma we're going to carry for a long time - and sadly it's well deserved.

    I understand this, but the real victims are the kids, that is the beginning and the end - regardless of where the legal issues fall. I think Penn State fans and the community are still in deep shock and pain...I would imagine that this horror is as close to the pain one would feel if it happened to your actual immediate (and close) family circle...the extreme sense of sin and betrayal, more than any other institution and it's supporters can experience...it's that close.

    Whatever the reality is, the healing will take much longer than anyone can imagine. The university's lasting legacy all hinges on how you move forward and clean house aggressively.

    This post was edited by usctrojan1 on 6/14/2012 at 12:44 PM

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    "Here are provided seats of meditative joy, where shall rise again the destined reign of Troy." Virgil

    usctrojan1

  • usctrojan1 said...

    Whatever the reality is, the healing will take much longer than anyone can imagine. The university's lasting legacy all hinges on how you move forward and clean house aggressively.

    Most, if not all, Penn State fans would agree with this.

    signature image signature image signature image

    ‏@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS

    Texas Lion

  • usctrojan1 said...

    I understand this, but the real victims are the kids, that is the beginning and the end - regardless of where the legal issues fall. I think Penn State fans and the community are still in deep shock and pain...I would imagine that this horror is as close to the pain one would feel if it happened to your actual immediate (and close) family circle...the extreme sense of sin and betrayal, more than any other institution and it's supporters can experience...it's that close.

    Whatever the reality is, the healing will take much longer than anyone can imagine. The university's lasting legacy all hinges on how you move forward and clean house aggressively.

    I completely agree - and especially the children being the real victims.

    Black Shoes. Basic Blues. No Name. All Game.

    appoo

  • appoo said...

    I completely agree - and especially the children being the real victims.

    I'm not going to post on this thread again, too sad...I can see the pain from all sides - perpetrators aside, but I'm a mom before anything else in my life.

    God bless Penn fans, may the Lord help you through this...do the right thing and fix what needs to be fixed.

    signature image

    "Here are provided seats of meditative joy, where shall rise again the destined reign of Troy." Virgil

    usctrojan1

  • Texas Lion said...

    I mentioned LOIC as a charge that could potentially happen.

    As for the death penalty and things of that nature, that's ridiculous. The NCAA should stick to jaywalking violations, and leave the sick demented people like Sandusky and Schultz and Spanier (potentially Joe) to a court of law where they can be punished to the full extent of the law.

    Punishing kids who had absolutely nothing to do with the charges would accomplish nothing, because the people they'd be attempting to teach the lesson to are all gone.

    If the NCAA could rearrange our Board of Trustees, please do. They need to be gone after the way they handled things.

    Why can't both the NCAA and the courts handle punishment?

    I doubt you would be singing the same tune about punishing innocent kids if this were pay for play at a different institution. The NCAA punishes innocent kids every year. Hell our kids didn't have a bowl game for two years and 30 kids miss out on a USC education because one player took money from an agent. If that is LOIC, what is this?

    Alonzo Harris ●

  • If the coach/booster/whoever was responsible for what happened was gone, I would agree the punishments were unfair to the kids who stayed and didn't get illegal benefits.

    I don't know enough about the USC situation to go ranting about it though, which is why I kept/keep my mouth shut about the situation.

    signature image signature image signature image

    ‏@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS

    Texas Lion

  • Texas Lion said...

    If the coach/booster/whoever was responsible for what happened was gone, I would agree the punishments were unfair to the kids who stayed and didn't get illegal benefits.

    I don't know enough about the USC situation to go ranting about it though, which is why I kept/keep my mouth shut about the situation.

    Yes the agent had no connection to the University. He was always "gone".

    It was also a civil case before the NCAA got their paws on it. So much for leaving it to the courts. You can check the NCAA mission statement posted below, as well as ethical conduct by laws posted earlier ITT. The entirety of leadership of the football program failed at Penn State. If senility is the excuse for one's failures, the ones in charge above him are still to blame for putting an incompetent person in charge.

    Mission Statement of NCAA*
    Core Ideology:
    The NCAA's core ideology consists of two notions: core purpose - the organization's reason for being - and core values - essential and enduring principles that guide an organization.
    Core Purpose:
    Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.
    Core Values:
    The Association - through its member institutions, conferences and national office staff - shares a belief in and commitment to:
    · The collegiate model of athletics in which students participate as an avocation, balancing their academic, social and athletics experiences.
    · The highest levels of integrity and sportsmanship.
    · The pursuit of excellence in both academics and athletics.
    · The supporting role that intercollegiate athletics plays in the higher education mission and in enhancing the sense of community and strengthening the identity of member institutions.
    · An inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and administrators from diverse backgrounds.
    · Respect for institutional autonomy and philosophical differences.
    · Presidential leadership of intercollegiate athletics at the campus, conference and national levels.

    This post was edited by Alonzo Harris on 6/14/2012 at 1:30 PM

    Alonzo Harris ●

  • Alonzo Harris said...

    Why can't both the NCAA and the courts handle punishment?

    I doubt you would be singing the same tune about punishing innocent kids if this were pay for play at a different institution. The NCAA punishes innocent kids every year. Hell our kids didn't have a bowl game for two years and 30 kids miss out on a USC education because one player took money from an agent. If that is LOIC, what is this?

    The LOIC was determined because there were athletes accross several sports getting benefits. It was about athletics.

    The Jerry Sandusky affair is nothing about athletics. That's the point. If you don't understand that, then we should just end this conversation right now because you never will get what we are saying.

    getmyjive11

  • getmyjive11 said...

    The LOIC was determined because there were athletes accross several sports getting benefits. It was about athletics.

    The Jerry Sandusky affair is nothing about athletics. That's the point. If you don't understand that, then we should just end this conversation right now because you never will get what we are saying.

    How is it not about athletics? Athletics were the vehicle for The Second Mile. It happened in athletic department facilities, and was covered up by members of the athletic department! It was a all done by a guy who still worked out in the athletic facilities and still had an office in the athletic department!

    Reggie taking money from agents didn't effect anything on the field. It had as much to do with "athletics" as this case.

    Alonzo Harris ●

  • getmyjive11 said...

    The LOIC was determined because there were athletes accross several sports getting benefits. It was about athletics.

    The Jerry Sandusky affair is nothing about athletics. That's the point. If you don't understand that, then we should just end this conversation right now because you never will get what we are saying.

    Also, if the National Collegiate Athletics Association has this:

    · The supporting role that intercollegiate athletics plays in the higher education mission and in enhancing the sense of community and strengthening the identity of member institutions.

    ...in its mission statement, how is that not about the athletics? What is the purpose of the athletic department? To ruin the community? To ruin the identity of the institution? Because your football program has done plenty well with that, even with the massive amounts of arrests outside of this Sandusky stuff.

    Name me one athletic department that is more corrupt than Penn State.

    Alonzo Harris ●

  • Alonzo Harris said...

    Also, if the National Collegiate Athletics Association has this:

    · The supporting role that intercollegiate athletics plays in the higher education mission and in enhancing the sense of community and strengthening the identity of member institutions.

    ...in its mission statement, how is that not about the athletics? What is the purpose of the athletic department? To ruin the community? To ruin the identity of the institution? Because your football program has done plenty well with that, even with the massive amounts of arrests outside of this Sandusky stuff.

    Name me one athletic department that is more corrupt than Penn State.

    USC cool

    Seriously though, you don't get what the NCAA's role is. So like I said, we cannot discuss this any further.

    getmyjive11

  • getmyjive11 said...

    The LOIC was determined because there were athletes accross several sports getting benefits. It was about athletics.

    The Jerry Sandusky affair is nothing about athletics. That's the point. If you don't understand that, then we should just end this conversation right now because you never will get what we are saying.

    You've said your case well throughout both threads, but saying Jerry Sandusky affair is nothing about athletics is not correct IMO. If Sandusky was just a professor and not a coach, I would bet a stack of money that the police would have been called.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Sir Mix A Lot ●

  • FL Buckeye said...

    You've said your case well throughout both threads, but saying Jerry Sandusky affair is nothing about athletics is not correct IMO. If Sandusky was just a professor and not a coach, I would bet a stack of money that the police would have been called.

    That could very well be, but that is just speculation. The only one who I can say with 100% certainty that knows the answer to that is Spanier since he made the decision. Based on the evidence at hand, there is nothing linking this as being a coverup for the football program. However, there is plenty to suggest that Spanier was doing it to save his friend.

    getmyjive11

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