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If you believe that scholarships are...

  • sf2k4 said...

    So these 4 year football scholarships, what are the requirements? GPA? Community service? Off the field issues (or lack thereof)? I don't know all of the details.

    3rd world beat me to it

    This post was edited by wwldd on 2/2/2012 at 3:12 PM

    wwldd

  • Oryhara said...

    Don't let facts get in the way of a narrative. Just stick with the fable that SEC football is the only place this happens.

    I admit, I don't know a lot of information about over-signing outside of the SEC. I do think it is a major competitive advantage and I think it should be seen as a major problem. I would love to know if these issues happen at the school I cheer for. I am a Wisconsin fan. Anyone know if I'm a hypocrite? Or am I safe on the soapbox?

    wwldd

  • BetterOff said...

    Didn't say that it would bring down them all, but if we were to be fair and make every scholarship offered by a University (sports, academic, and organizational) a 4-year scholarship a lot of the schools would either have to make a decision to give out a lot less scholarships campus wide or yes, they would begin to run into debts. This is something that extremely worries people at many FCS programs, some lower tier FCS programs and yes, even Boise St.

    What you are wanting to do is tell the actual student and other athletes that the football player is more important than them.

    By the way, I noticed that the girls soccer programs in the b1g just gave out 1 year scholarships. Why is that?

    By the way, the argument I made for oversigning had nothing to do with this. I was just making the point that truth is money and results driven and no one in the b1g offices actually really care about the kids.

    Could you explain the math here?

    If you give out 85 scholarships a year, then the cost to the university is 85 schollies/year. Whether the individual who had 1 of the 85 scholarships in 2012 is the same one who has 1 of them in '13 is immaterial; you can't give out more than 85 scholarships in a year.

    The difference between a 4 year schollie and a 1 year schollie is who's getting the scholarship. The 4 year scholarship guarantees that player X will have that scholarship for 4 years. A 1 year renewable scholarship means that player X could have that scholarship in '12, be told that he's under-performing, and have that scholarship go to player Y, a new recruit in '13.

    In a 4 year scholarship plan, player Y can't come into the picture till player X's 4 years are up.

    There should be 0 change to the universities; this really benefits the student-athletes.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

    SpartanRocky

  • wwldd said...

    I admit, I don't know a lot of information about over-signing outside of the SEC. I do think it is a major competitive advantage and I think it should be seen as a major problem. I would love to know if these issues happen at the school I cheer for. I am a Wisconsin fan. Anyone know if I'm a hypocrite? Or am I safe on the soapbox?

    You can be on the soapbox. The Big Ten does have strict oversigning rules for all sports.

    The oversigning rules for baseball make no sense however and actually prevent rosters from being filled and helping kids obtain an education. But no one is crusading against that yet.

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    In memory of Tusks.

    Oryhara

  • wwldd said...

    I admit, I don't know a lot of information about over-signing outside of the SEC. I do think it is a major competitive advantage and I think it should be seen as a major problem. I would love to know if these issues happen at the school I cheer for. I am a Wisconsin fan. Anyone know if I'm a hypocrite? Or am I safe on the soapbox?

    Teams like Wisconsin really get hosed. I think you could only sign like 12 or 13 players this year. Imagine being able to sign 25 every year. I think you are safe.

    Big A

  • Then lets cast a wider net. Is it happening in the Big Ten? Rest of the auto qualifiers? Who outside of every SEC school, except Vanderbilt (please correct me if I am wrong), is benefiting from "bending" the rules in this manner.

    wwldd

  • I think we need to get rid of the 85... The 4 year vs. 1 year is still more of a promise, but it would protect folks down on the depth chart. Also, some schools just would move them to medical scholarships.

    billyfloyd

  • Wouldn't have to do this if schools didn't cut these kids like they are on a pro football team.

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    Damaged goods

    MaizeandBlue21

  • The "performance" clause is unclear. What if a coach just whiffs on a recruit and even though the kid's working his butt off he is a 3rd stringer. Should the coach suffer for his poor selection or should the player suffer because he wasn't as good as others thought. That's the dirty little secret of oversigning the coach gets a do-over if he effs up.

    I have no problem with pulling scholarships from lazy and unmotivated athletes. A scholarship is a contract between student and school. Both should live up to their ends of the contract.

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    Looks like another perfect day.

    Under Review

  • Under Review said...

    The "performance" clause is unclear. What if a coach just whiffs on a recruit and even though the kid's working his butt off he is a 3rd stringer. Should the coach suffer for his poor selection or should the player suffer because he wasn't as good as others thought. That's the dirty little secret of oversigning the coach gets a do-over if he effs up.

    I have no problem with pulling scholarships from lazy and unmotivated athletes. A scholarship is a contract between student and school. Both should live up to their ends of the contract.

    Under performing kids should be kept on scholarship. Lazy is tough to justify. If a kid attends all mandatory events and goes through the motions how do you decide you can just cut them? Why hasn't the coach motivated them?

    In some cases it seems that you don't have to motivate them. Just remove them from the program and recruit another player. Why motivate a kid, as talented as he may be, when you can easily take a chance on another talented, and potentially unmotivated, prospect. The next one could be a keeper. And the only one to suffer, in the coaches perspective, is the player who didn't try hard enough. - Its his fault he didn't take advantage of an opportunity, right?

    Except nobody knows whether kids who suddenly disappear from SEC, and other, depth charts didn't try or simply weren't good enough for the coach at the time.

    Meanwhile other schools cant take these chances and "have" to live with their mistakes. One of my favorite Bret Bielema quotes is "you recruit your own problems". To me at least, that only applies outside of those who over-sign.

    In the long run this is why I don't give two sh*ts whether or not Wisconsin wins a national championship. Its also why every time the crowd chants "SEC, SEC, SEC" at the end of the national championship game all I hear is "WE CHEAT BEST, WE CHEAT BEST".shrug

    This post was edited by wwldd on 2/2/2012 at 4:14 PM

    wwldd

  • wwldd said...

    Under performing kids should be kept on scholarship. Lazy is tough to justify. If a kid attends all mandatory events and goes through the motions how do you decide you can just cut them? Why hasn't the coach motivated them?

    In some cases it seems that you don't have to motivate them. Just remove them from the program and recruit another player. Why motivate a kid, as talented as he may be, when you can easily take a chance on another talented, and potentially unmotivated, prospect. The next one could be a keeper. And the only one to suffer, in the coaches perspective, is the player who didn't try hard enough. - Its his fault he didn't take advantage of an opportunity, right?

    Except nobody knows whether kids who suddenly disappear from SEC, and other, depth charts didn't try or simply weren't good enough for the coach at the time.

    Meanwhile other schools cant take these chances and "have" to live with their mistakes. One of my favorite Bret Bielema quotes is "you recruit your own problems". To me at least, that only applies outside of those who over-sign.

    In the long run this is why I don't give two sh*ts whether or not Wisconsin wins a national championship. Its also why every time the crowd chants "SEC, SEC, SEC" at the end of the national championship game all I hear is "WE CHEAT BEST, WE CHEAT BEST".shrug

    "If you ain't cheating you ain't trying."- SEC fans.

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    amrollZ71

  • theFightingtide said...

    "If you ain't cheating you ain't trying."- SEC fans.

    Nevermind, done whining for the day.

    This post was edited by wwldd on 2/2/2012 at 4:38 PM

    wwldd

  • Under Review said...

    The "performance" clause is unclear. What if a coach just whiffs on a recruit and even though the kid's working his butt off he is a 3rd stringer. Should the coach suffer for his poor selection or should the player suffer because he wasn't as good as others thought. That's the dirty little secret of oversigning the coach gets a do-over if he effs up.

    I have no problem with pulling scholarships from lazy and unmotivated athletes. A scholarship is a contract between student and school. Both should live up to their ends of the contract.

    we all suffer for our choices.

    i think it would change the way coaches recruit to have to give them 3 years of a career. It would probably eliminate oversigning, grey-shirting, all that shit, cuz then the coach would have to be damn sure about his picks (much like the pros, even though there are busts there...) and then the shotgun approach and cutting and grey-shirting and the rest of the 100=85 would slowly melt away.

    you make the wrong decision? you are stuck. bet coaches would make sure they offered only who they really wanted, and did a good amount of due diligence on their own, huh.
    it would work for probably 3 years, until some other douchebag found a way to cheat without cheating. it would also probably quell the practices that if a coach does these things, you ban his ass for life. i bet they would be pretty good about making sure they were adhering to the rules, then.

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    3rdWorldPlanet

  • SpartanRocky said...

    Could you explain the math here?

    If you give out 85 scholarships a year, then the cost to the university is 85 schollies/year. Whether the individual who had 1 of the 85 scholarships in 2012 is the same one who has 1 of them in '13 is immaterial; you can't give out more than 85 scholarships in a year.

    The difference between a 4 year schollie and a 1 year schollie is who's getting the scholarship. The 4 year scholarship guarantees that player X will have that scholarship for 4 years. A 1 year renewable scholarship means that player X could have that scholarship in '12, be told that he's under-performing, and have that scholarship go to player Y, a new recruit in '13.

    In a 4 year scholarship plan, player Y can't come into the picture till player X's 4 years are up.

    There should be 0 change to the universities; this really benefits the student-athletes.

    Missing my point. There should be no differenced in any scholarship. If an athletic scholarship is to be for 4 years, so should the academic and organizational scholarship. If they are not going to match up I am not for the switch. That is getting the priorities of a University all out of wack.

    Most public Universities at the moment are required to offer a certain amount of scholarships to people of all demographics and certain economic situations to maintain government funding. If these are all to be 4 year dedals. Either the amount of kids with these oppurtunities will lower or there is going to be more funding needed to fulfill these positions. Since the guidelines, IMO need to be the same across the borad for ALL scholarships sinced athletic accomplishments has nothing to with whether a kid is allowed to stay on scholarship, there shouldn't be a minimum GPA requirement to maintain an academic scholarship. I do know at Texas (just where I saw the info), 52% of all students on acadedmic scholarships lose their funding at some point during their academic career. 7% "flunk out" but the rest just didn't maintain the GPA requirements of a 3.0 or a 3.25 or whatever the bar is set at. That is a lot of extra funding or less people with a chance to go to that University. If things aren't this way I wouldn't think that would be fair and the priorities of our Universities would truly be backwards, IMO. I am all for the 4 year scholarship if it is equal, but don't think it won't cost or that you can just think in the terms of football.

    BetterOff

  • One year..... in this world you have to earn your way at all times. There's always someone trying to take your spot. That's called a free market. Whay should we handcuff coaches? They are the ones who get fired if they don't succeed and win games.

    Nightrider

  • wwldd said...

    Under performing kids should be kept on scholarship. Lazy is tough to justify. If a kid attends all mandatory events and goes through the motions how do you decide you can just cut them? Why hasn't the coach motivated them?

    You can really tell the kids who refuse to buy in.

    USC recently had several players transfer. At practices three of these guys always stood apart from the rest of the team. The coaches tried to get them to buy into the program but they were more interested in their own personal achievements.

    and the ganja.

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    Looks like another perfect day.

    Under Review

  • Nightrider said...

    One year..... in this world you have to earn your way at all times. There's always someone trying to take your spot. That's called a free market. Whay should we handcuff coaches? They are the ones who get fired if they don't succeed and win games.

    bringing a free market into college football is completely ridiculous.

    college football is a restricted market at best. at worst, it is a monopoly, using monopolistic practices for unlawful gain. they don't even compete against each other financially within their conferences.

    stop

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    3rdWorldPlanet

  • See, I'm still not sure what they mean by 4 years. I had an academic nearly-full-ride scholarship at Bama that was offered for a maximum of 4 years. I had to maintain a GPA of a 3.5. If I had a semester below that I was put on probation. If I were to have consecutive probationary semesters I would lose my scholarship. Is that similar to what the football players will be doing?

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    sf2k4

  • 3rdWorldPlanet said...

    at this point, i don't think a lot of details have been released. I would like to see performance based incentives, as well... i would like to see kids getting incentives for GPA and other things, but with no retard classes.

    i think it is a shame that college athletics has become this business... if it is a business, then it should be ran like one and the market should be deregulated. players should be paid, and go to the highest bidder... salary caps, free agency, all of it.

    if colleges are using the education argument as their reasoning, then there should be some good educating going on.

    All this from a man who wants to kill whitey. It sounds like you are whitey. What exactly is behind your genocidal tendencies, Mr. Honkey hater?

    This post was edited by DavidPhares on 2/2/2012 at 7:44 PM

    DavidPhares

  • I believe scholly's should be 1 year deals. You have to earn your way each year.

    Jeff4SC

  • DavidPhares said...

    All this from a man who wants to kill whitey. It sounds like you are whitey. What exactly is behind your genoidal tendencies, Mr. Honkey hater?

    whitey.

    kill it with fire.

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    3rdWorldPlanet

  • You must be an Indian. What Cherokkee, Navaho, Sioux, Creek??

    I dont blame the Red Man for wanting to kill Whitey. If those Mayans knew gun powder existed, they could have alerted thier northern brethren that Whitey was on the way.

    I guess itsI alright if you burn up a few of those crackers. But i would strongly reccomend you stop before deciding to drop a 9 on me. Hey, and , next time, don't cry up on your horse when some Casper tosses a cigarette out his sports car.

    Peace

    This post was edited by DavidPhares on 2/2/2012 at 7:50 PM

    DavidPhares

  • DavidPhares said...

    You must be an Indian. What Cherokkee, Navaho, Sioux, Creek??

    I dont blame the Red Man for wanting to kill Whitey. If those Mayans knew gun powder existed, they could have alerted thier northern brethren that Whitey was on the way.

    I guess itsI alright if you burn up a few of those crackers. But i would strongly reccomend you stop before deciding to drop a 9 on me. Hey, and , next time, don't cry up on your horse when some Casper tosses a cigarette out his sports car.

    Peace

    ha ha ha... errywan's a killa on the inner nats.

    ha ha ha... you ain't gone kill nothin, and you ain gone watch nothin die

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    power to the people... COO of yo hood ent.... www.yohoodent.com

    3rdWorldPlanet

  • 3rdWorldPlanet said...

    ha ha ha... errywan's a killa on the inner nats.

    ha ha ha... you ain't gone kill nothin, and you ain gone watch nothin die

    I'm sorry my newly found Red man Hombre, Please make no mistake with my inference. I was giving you my blessing to wax a few crackers. I was not threatening your existence in this Red land. I merely suggested you stop before popping my ass.

    Afterall, it is my right to give you my blessing, You see, I am a Bama fan, and everybody knows Bama fans rulle the world.

    Peace be upon you, Red Man

    DavidPhares

  • DavidPhares said...

    I'm sorry my newly found Red man Hombre, Please make no mistake with my inference. I was giving you my blessing to wax a few crackers. I was not threatening your existence in this Red land. I merely suggested you stop before popping my ass.

    Afterall, it is my right to give you my blessing, You see, I am a Bama fan, and everybody knows Bama fans rulle the world.

    Peace be upon you, Red Man

    ha ha ha ha...

    funny motherfffker...

    good one

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    power to the people... COO of yo hood ent.... www.yohoodent.com

    3rdWorldPlanet