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Immigration question.

  • Critical Q. I had dinner last night with my buds Hector and Jose. Both were born and raised in Mexico. Both immigrated to the US around 18. Both grew up HUGE fans of the US in the cold war, and always dreamed of coming to America. Hector immigrated legally with a work visa and got his citizenship about a year back. Jose snuck across the border and has been living undocumented. They got into an argument last night over the idea of who is a "real American" Hector and I believe Hector is a real American, but Jose isn't. Jose thinks that since he grew up rooting for the US with his dad that he's just as American as us, and it's unfair to say he's not because we don't know about the cirumstances he grew up with. Who is right?

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    "As far as the downvotes. It's a gnat biting an lion" -- A member of tRCMB Justice League, taking the internet WAY WAY too seriously.

    Rocket_Play ●

  • No documentation equals alien, doesn't matter where you are born.

    This post was edited by AuburnInOrlando on 2/28/2013 at 6:04 AM

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    I Believe Auburn and Love IT...4 Life! You should prepare yourself to live with the consequences of your decisions, whatever they may be.

    AuburnInOrlando

  • Jose needs to GTFO and come back on a visa like Hector.

    TeddyG

  • Sounds like none of you guys are American to me. Real Americans travel south Texas with ar-15's trying to stop the debate you guys where having. shrug

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    WillieMuffcramp

  • Rocket_Play said...

    Critical Q. I had dinner last night with my buds Hector and Jose. Both were born and raised in Mexico. Both immigrated to the US around 18. Both grew up HUGE fans of the US in the cold war, and always dreamed of coming to America. Hector immigrated legally with a work visa and got his citizenship about a year back. Jose snuck across the border and has been living undocumented. They got into an argument last night over the idea of who is a "real American" Hector and I believe Hector is a real American, but Jose isn't. Jose thinks that since he grew up rooting for the US with his dad that he's just as American as us, and it's unfair to say he's not because we don't know about the cirumstances he grew up with. Who is right?

    Ain't no real Merkin in that story

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    Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say "YES"!

    andrew32

  • Unless Hector is quite skilled/educated or happens to be married to a US citizen, I'm calling BS. There is essentially no way for unskilled workers to immigrate to the US legally.

    See a picture for a handy chart on how to become a US citizen.

    attachment

    ramssuperbowl99

  • None of the 3 of you are native Americans

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    shortcbaseballa

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    Unless Hector is quite skilled/educated or happens to be married to a US citizen, I'm calling BS. There is essentially no way for unskilled workers to immigrate to the US legally.

    See a picture for a handy chart on how to become a US citizen.

    How are the Indians able to do it so easily? I know an Indian guy that went through all of the proper steps, learned English, etc and moved to Florida. He was very qualified but couldn't find a decent job because he didn't know that he also had to learn Spanish.

    Where I was raised, Indians are snatching up the hotels and gas stations and moving their families there legally in large numbers. They are functioning parts of the community and nobody has a problem at all with it.

    I went to school with several Asians that went through the proper channels to get student visas. The system worked for them, as well.

    Dont get me started on Canadians. A good friend of mine is from Haiti and became a US citizen in 1 year.

    So here is what I don't understand. Why is it only a problem for Mexicans to do things right? Everyone acts like it is such an impossible process to become a LEGAL citizen but it obviously isn't.

    justinboze

  • justinboze said...

    So here is what I don't understand. Why is it only a problem for Mexicans to do things right? Everyone acts like it is such an impossible process to become a LEGAL citizen but it obviously isn't.

    Because the vast majority of Mexican illegal immigrants are unskilled workers. The other examples you listed are skilled workers who can get visa's through their employers. The process is annoying and takes forever, and most of the people you listed likely took about 6-10 years to become citizens (unless they have a spouse who is a citizen already).

    ramssuperbowl99

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    Because the vast majority of Mexican illegal immigrants are unskilled workers. The other examples you listed are skilled workers who can get visa's through their employers. The process is annoying and takes forever, and most of the people you listed likely took about 6-10 years to become citizens (unless they have a spouse who is a citizen already).

    Not true. The Haitian guy never finished any schooling. He is a plumber and it only took him a year. I have met some of his Haitian friends that all do general labor to feed their families. They are all legal US citizens now.

    Does Mexico not have a program that allows students to study abroad like Asian countries? I know a student visa isn't permanent but it allows them to be here legally.

    Do you know what would happen to you if you were caught in Mexico without legal documents?

    justinboze

  • justinboze said...

    Not true. The Haitian guy never finished any schooling. He is a plumber and it only took him a year. I have met some of his Haitian friends that all do general labor to feed their families. They are all legal US citizens now.

    Does Mexico not have a program that allows students to study abroad like Asian countries? I know a student visa isn't permanent but it allows them to be here legally.

    Do you know what would happen to you if you were caught in Mexico without legal documents?

    I have no idea if Mexico has a program that lets people study abroad, but it's not relevant at all because the people who want to come to America from Mexico aren't educated in general. Like I said, there is no current way for them to acquire a green card.

    When did your Haitian friend immigrate? If it was a while ago, that would explain it. In the past few years regulations on immigration have really tightened up, which is why people are immigrating illegally.

    ramssuperbowl99

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    I have no idea if Mexico has a program that lets people study abroad, but it's not relevant at all because the people who want to come to America from Mexico aren't educated in general. Like I said, there is no current way for them to acquire a green card.

    When did your Haitian friend immigrate? If it was a while ago, that would explain it. In the past few years regulations on immigration have really tightened up, which is why people are immigrating illegally.

    He became a citizen in 2009.

    There is the idea that Mexicans that want to come here are uneducated and unskilled. Im not saying that is always the case but it is often the excuse for not being able to get citizenship, as you mentioned. Do you think it's a good idea to allow a huge population movement of unskilled and uneducated people, no matter where they are from? We can't support our own citizens so do you think we should start supporting others? I am not meaning welfare support, but jobs, social security, health care, etc even though welfare receipients would also grow.

    justinboze

  • justinboze said...

    He became a citizen in 2009.

    There is the idea that Mexicans that want to come here are uneducated and unskilled. Im not saying that is always the case but it is often the excuse for not being able to get citizenship, as you mentioned. Do you think it's a good idea to allow a huge population movement of unskilled and uneducated people, no matter where they are from? We can't support our own citizens so do you think we should start supporting others? I am not meaning welfare support, but jobs, social security, health care, etc even though welfare receipients would also grow.

    They are already here. The idea that making immigration illegal is going to stop them from coming makes about as much sense as making guns or pot illegal to prevent people from owning guns or buying weed.

    Further, illegal immigrants actually pay taxes. In order to get a job, they get a fake social security number and their taxes are deducted from checks just like yours or mine. While their kids get public education, if their kids were born in the US, they are US citizens so that's no more exploitative than anyone else getting public education. If you want a fact that tells you how broken the US tax system is, the average illegal immigrant paid a higher percentage of their income as taxes than Mitt Romney did.

    Personally, I'm libertarian. I'm of the opinion that if you want to immigrate to the US, you should be able to. However, backing up from this, the idea that only 10,000 unskilled workers can get green cards per year is insane. That system is broken, and illegal immigration in massive waves is the result of it.

    ramssuperbowl99

  • Jose needs to GTFO.

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    @rpayne2107

    CptAUmerica21

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    They are already here. The idea that making immigration illegal is going to stop them from coming makes about as much sense as making guns or pot illegal to prevent people from owning guns or buying weed.

    Further, illegal immigrants actually pay taxes. In order to get a job, they get a fake social security number and their taxes are deducted from checks just like yours or mine. While their kids get public education, if their kids were born in the US, they are US citizens so that's no more exploitative than anyone else getting public education. If you want a fact that tells you how broken the US tax system is, the average illegal immigrant paid a higher percentage of their income as taxes than Mitt Romney did.

    Personally, I'm libertarian. I'm of the opinion that if you want to immigrate to the US, you should be able to. However, backing up from this, the idea that only 10,000 unskilled workers can get green cards per year is insane. That system is broken, and illegal immigration in massive waves is the result of it.

    If you were as rich as Romney or Buffet then you would have an extremely low tax %, too. When your income comes from investments then it immediately isn't taxed at as high of a rate as regular middle class workers.

    If you are sitting on $100 million in savings and made $5 million this year on investments then all you'd have to do is donate some money to charities that you respect and could get it down to $0 of taxable income. If you didn't write off a single expense then your tax rate would still be below mine because wages are taxed higher than investment income.

    justinboze

  • justinboze said...

    If you were as rich as Romney or Buffet then you would have an extremely low tax %, too. When your income comes from investments then it immediately isn't taxed at as high of a rate as regular middle class workers.

    If you are sitting on $100 million in savings and made $5 million this year on investments then all you'd have to do is donate some money to charities that you respect and could get it down to $0 of taxable income. If you didn't write off a single expense then your tax rate would still be below mine because wages are taxed higher than investment income.

    I realize where the discrepancy comes from. I just think it's a noteworthy factoid for people who think illegal immigrants are moochers and freeloaders to consider.

    ramssuperbowl99

  • So you guys are saying growing up loving America is different than being American?

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    "As far as the downvotes. It's a gnat biting an lion" -- A member of tRCMB Justice League, taking the internet WAY WAY too seriously.

    Rocket_Play ●

  • WillieMuffcramp said...

    Sounds like none of you guys are American to me. Real Americans travel south Texas with ar-15's trying to stop the debate you guys where having. shrug

    This...

    rms02d

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    They are already here. The idea that making immigration illegal is going to stop them from coming makes about as much sense as making guns or pot illegal to prevent people from owning guns or buying weed.

    Further, illegal immigrants actually pay taxes. In order to get a job, they get a fake social security number and their taxes are deducted from checks just like yours or mine. While their kids get public education, if their kids were born in the US, they are US citizens so that's no more exploitative than anyone else getting public education. If you want a fact that tells you how broken the US tax system is, the average illegal immigrant paid a higher percentage of their income as taxes than Mitt Romney did.

    Personally, I'm libertarian. I'm of the opinion that if you want to immigrate to the US, you should be able to. However, backing up from this, the idea that only 10,000 unskilled workers can get green cards per year is insane. That system is broken, and illegal immigration in massive waves is the result of it.

    How many unskilled workers do you think we need? It sure as hell isn't 11 million.

    There is cultural, including language, issues here to consider also, but of course it's taboo to discuss that. You can't infinitely allow millions upon millions of people from one country to enter a country, not require them to assimilate and expect there not to be profound consequences on the culture of the host country.

    Frankly I don't want to live in a Hispanic society, nothing against them but they already have a country. Why do they need ours too?

    I don't understand why this isn't part of the mainstream conversation on this issue.

    TroyTide

  • TroyTide said...

    How many unskilled workers do you think we need? It sure as hell isn't 11 million.

    There is cultural, including language, issues here to consider also, but of course it's taboo to discuss that. You can't infinitely allow millions upon millions of people from one country to enter a country, not require them to assimilate and expect there not to be profound consequences on the culture of the host country.

    Frankly I don't want to live in a Hispanic society, nothing against them but they already have a country. Why do they need ours too?

    I don't understand why this isn't part of the mainstream conversation on this issue.

    Apart from being the most blatantly racist thing I've seen in a while, it's mostly wrong.

    There is no official language in America. If you come in speaking Spanish, that's fine. If you're culture is different than 'normal', you're free to have your own culture.

    As for the economics of illegal immigrants, the consensus is that the good outweighs the bad. Even the most pessimistic view would put the presence of illegals as a net neutral.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States#Illegal_immigrant_income_distribution

    ramssuperbowl99

  • TroyTide said...

    How many unskilled workers do you think we need? It sure as hell isn't 11 million.

    There is cultural, including language, issues here to consider also, but of course it's taboo to discuss that. You can't infinitely allow millions upon millions of people from one country to enter a country, not require them to assimilate and expect there not to be profound consequences on the culture of the host country.

    Frankly I don't want to live in a Hispanic society, nothing against them but they already have a country. Why do they need ours too?

    I don't understand why this isn't part of the mainstream conversation on this issue.

    Liberals live in make believe fantasy world.

    Eventually, it will bite them in the ass. Sadly, we have to hit rock bottom before these idiots realize it.

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    @rpayne2107

    CptAUmerica21

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    Apart from being the most blatantly racist thing I've seen in a while, it's mostly wrong.

    There is no official language in America. If you come in speaking Spanish, that's fine. If you're culture is different than 'normal', you're free to have your own culture.

    As for the economics of illegal immigrants, the consensus is that the good outweighs the bad. Even the most pessimistic view would put the presence of illegals as a net neutral. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States#Illegal_immigrant_income_distribution

    ooo wikipedia.

    Dumb ass post.

    different cultures create a divide. All of our ancestors had to learn english, so why aren't they? Oh yeah that's right, we have way too many retards in this country in power.

    They should not be allowed to just stay here and should be kicked out immediately. Come here like all of us did... legally.

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    @rpayne2107

    CptAUmerica21

  • CptAUmerica21 said...

    ooo wikipedia.

    Dumb ass post.

    different cultures create a divide. All of our ancestors had to learn english, so why aren't they? Oh yeah that's right, we have way too many retards in this country in power.

    They should not be allowed to just stay here and should be kicked out immediately. Come here like all of us did... legally.

    Wikipedia's error rate is similar to most major encyclopedias. But if that bothers you, you can use the sources at the bottom of the page.

    All your ancestors knew english when they came, or, in the case of say Germans, had access to German newspapers and German was even spoken in public schools.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language_in_the_United_States#German_as_the_official_US_language_myth

    So that's complete BS.

    They should be recognized as the result of a broken illegal immigration system and given amnesty as part of an overhaul of the US immigration system.

    ramssuperbowl99

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    Apart from being the most blatantly racist thing I've seen in a while, it's mostly wrong.

    There is no official language in America. If you come in speaking Spanish, that's fine. If you're culture is different than 'normal', you're free to have your own culture.

    As for the economics of illegal immigrants, the consensus is that the good outweighs the bad. Even the most pessimistic view would put the presence of illegals as a net neutral.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States#Illegal_immigrant_income_distribution

    See this is what I am talking about nobody can pose obvious pertinent questions about the issue without being labeled racist. It is in fact okay and perfectly normal to question the sustainability of ones culture when faced with mass migration. In fact mass migration coupled with low birth rates like we have in the West is how cultures come to an end.

    The official language thing is irrelevant, just because there are no laws about it doesn't mean that being a bilingual country is a good thing. Because its not, in fact it leads to division and interrupts commerce.

    Not being able to understand one another is not beneficial for any party involved.

    But keep calling me racist, lol. I will not respond to any post in this thread that calls me racist from this point forward. It isn't true and its a way of shouting down opinions on the issue as a means of avoiding the conversation.

    This post was edited by TroyTide on 2/28/2013 at 10:34 AM

    TroyTide

  • TroyTide said...

    See this us what I am talking about nobody can pose obvious pertinent questions about the issue without being labeled racist.

    You basically said you don't want them here because you don't like them and don't want to live in a society that is in any way Hispanic.

    Is that's not racist I don't know what is.

    ramssuperbowl99

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