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Is "Braves" offensive?

  • Alonzo Harris said...

    Basing your entire argument off of one guy is stupid.

    You declare tribes as sovereign nations, make treaties with them, disregard those treaties and take their land, send them walking across the continent in the winter to a place they've never lived only to take that over as well when you find oil there. Then you destroy their language and culture by forcing them to assimilate into American society and go to boarding school, change their names, and tell most of them that they aren't Native because they don't look like it. Force the ones that do look like it to have a card stating that they're Native. Then tell them to get over it and that Redskins isn't racist because one guy isn't upset about it.

    The United States has taken a giant dump on Indigenous Tribes since we were formed, the least we could do is not name our sports teams after them if they don't want it.

    You know, the Indians aren't special. Every civilization gets conquered and destroyed at some point. Not saying what happened is okay, it most certainly wasn't, or that it wasn't particularly brutal at times, but lets quit acting like they are some exception. Some civilizations lose, others win, eventually the winners will lose, welcome to earth.

    Second I highly doubt most Indians have even given a second or first thought to the names of Baseball teams. Most probably just don't care, kinda like most blacks don't care about some the things they are supposed to be offended about.

    Besides like I said the names aren't meant to be derogatory.

    This post was edited by TroyTide on 4/27/2012 at 2:41 PM

    TroyTide

  • Alonzo Harris said...

    Basing your entire argument off of one guy is stupid.

    You declare tribes as sovereign nations, make treaties with them, disregard those treaties and take their land, send them walking across the continent in the winter to a place they've never lived only to take that over as well when you find oil there. Then you destroy their language and culture by forcing them to assimilate into American society and go to boarding school, change their names, and tell most of them that they aren't Native because they don't look like it. Force the ones that do look like it to have a card stating that they're Native. The women that are have their tubes tied unwillingly or unknowingly by doctors to help solve "The Indian Problem". Then tell them to get over it and that Redskins isn't racist because one guy isn't upset about it.

    The United States has taken a giant dump on Indigenous Tribes since we were formed, the least we could do is not name our sports teams after them if they don't want it.

    Theres a difference between Spartans, Trojans, Seminoles, and Indians, Braves, and Redskins.

    wow, i actually agree with AH - that might be a first.

    but...to further this topic... i had nothing to do with what you stated above, and it is very unfortunate and we have as a nation truly set them up. I know of no Native American that isn't taken care of at this point in time. and i frankly do not know any Native American that is subjected to any form of racism (NOT SAYING IT DOESN'T HAPPEN), all i'm saying is, it's different today, in my view of the world - and I live in the South - not the SouthWest - so obviously, my opinion means nothing.

    also - how long do we have to abide and walk on glass? when can things get back to normal? basically every ethnic group has done something wrong to one or the other. and in the end, it's the whitey that gets the mud on their faces?

    need i remind you that the tribes you speak of warred against each other long before the first American stepped foot here. they also took prisoners, and treated them as slaves. anyone demeaning those Indian nations for that or holding them accountable? NO, all you hear is how bad the American Gov't was - not how bad they were to each other either. - why is one worse than the other is my questions? in my view - neither should be let off the hook - but yet the whitey gov't is the only one that is talked about in bad light.

    but i do agree - if the tribe leader wants Redskins removed - then I think they have a right for that to not be used.

    In the end who gives a crap - change it from Atlanta Braves to Atlanta Ding Dongs - no males will get offended at that (I think).

    viper_36

  • viper_36 said...

    wow, i actually agree with AH - that might be a first.

    but...to further this topic... i had nothing to do with what you stated above, and it is very unfortunate and we have as a nation truly set them up. I know of no Native American that isn't taken care of at this point in time. and i frankly do not know any Native American that is subjected to any form of racism (NOT SAYING IT DOESN'T HAPPEN), all i'm saying is, it's different today, in my view of the world - and I live in the South - not the SouthWest - so obviously, my opinion means nothing.

    also - how long do we have to abide and walk on glass? when can things get back to normal? basically every ethnic group has done something wrong to one or the other. and in the end, it's the whitey that gets the mud on their faces?

    need i remind you that the tribes you speak of warred against each other long before the first American stepped foot here. they also took prisoners, and treated them as slaves. anyone demeaning those Indian nations for that or holding them accountable? NO, all you hear is how bad the American Gov't was - not how bad they were to each other either. - why is one worse than the other is my questions? in my view - neither should be let off the hook - but yet the whitey gov't is the only one that is talked about in bad light.

    but i do agree - if the tribe leader wants Redskins removed - then I think they have a right for that to not be used.

    In the end who gives a crap - change it from Atlanta Braves to Atlanta Ding Dongs - no males will get offended at that (I think).

    So if a single Irishmen is offended by Notre Dames nickname should ND have to change it?

    TroyTide

  • TroyTide said...

    You know, the Indians aren't special. Every civilization gets conquered and destroyed at some point. Not saying what happened is okay, it most certainly wasn't, or that it wasn't particularly brutal at times, but lets quit acting like they are some exception. Some civilizations lose, others win, eventually the winners will lose, welcome to earth.

    Second I highly doubt most Indians have even given a second or first thought to the names of Baseball teams. Most probably just don't care, kinda like most blacks don't care about some the things they are supposed to be offended about.

    Besides like I said the names aren't meant to be derogatory.

    Educate yourself on the subject and you won't have to assume.

    Braves, Indians, and Redskins aren't even tribes, they are just names given to people by Europeans.

    Seminoles, Cherokee, Navajo, Spokane, Ojibwe are tribes.

    Alonzo Harris

  • Alonzo Harris said...

    Educate yourself on the subject and you won't have to assume.

    Braves, Indians, and Redskins aren't even tribes, they are just names given to people by Europeans.

    Seminoles, Cherokee, Navajo, Spokane, Ojibwe are tribes.

    Yeah I know where the term "Indian" came from, Columbus being wrong. I also know most Indians refer to themselves as Indian or American Indian and Native American.

    As far as I know Braves is just the name of a baseball team. Redskins is the only one that could possibly even be construed as racist, even then that franchise in no way is mocking Indians.

    Nothing in the quoted post is news to me.

    This post was edited by TroyTide on 4/27/2012 at 3:01 PM

    TroyTide

  • ejb5212 said...

    My Grandpa was from Ireland. Notre Dames mascot offends me i'm a lover not a fighter

    I'm Irish as well. Bro none of us are ashamed of our stereotype. We love to drink & we love to fist fight. It's our thing. Find me one Irish person ashamed of this & he will be excommunicated from the brood.

    signature image

    big john

  • TroyTide said...

    So if a single Irishmen is offended by Notre Dames nickname should ND have to change it?

    nay, notice i said a tribal leader. now, if the POPE was offended. LOL

    again, we started this crap a long time ago and where does it end - it doesn't. every little thing is just going to continue to offend people.

    for instance - why is it ok to call someone a "Swede" (heard that at the Master's tournament), but if you call someone a "Jap", oh boy, you are in trouble....

    again though, call me "Whitey" and i frankly can't do anything about it, and i have no idea why, i didn't do anything to anybody.

    but it is what it is. so be it.

    viper_36

  • big john said...

    I'm Irish as well. Bro none of us are ashamed of our stereotype. We love to drink & we love to fist fight. It's our thing. Find me one Irish person ashamed of this & he will be excommunicated from the brood.

    Well maybe you should be offended, that's the cool thing to be now.

    TroyTide

  • TroyTide said...

    Well maybe you should be offended, that's the cool thing to be now.

    nay, Caucasians can't be offended, that's the offended rule of law.

    viper_36

  • viper_36 said...

    nay, notice i said a tribal leader. now, if the POPE was offended. LOL

    again, we started this crap a long time ago and where does it end - it doesn't. every little thing is just going to continue to offend people.

    for instance - why is it ok to call someone a "Swede" (heard that at the Master's tournament), but if you call someone a "Jap", oh boy, you are in trouble....

    again though, call me "Whitey" and i frankly can't do anything about it, and i have no idea why, i didn't do anything to anybody.

    but it is what it is. so be it.

    Lol. So if some tribal leader decides he is mad about it they should change the name? Does it matter which tribe, or will any tribal leader suffice?

    TroyTide

  • TroyTide said...

    Lol. So if some tribal leader decides he is mad about it they should change the name? Does it matter which tribe, or will any tribal leader suffice?

    well, I guess so, heck why not!

    I don't know of any of the Native Nations calling "foul" on the Braves - do you? :)

    viper_36

  • viper_36 said...

    wow, i actually agree with AH - that might be a first.

    but...to further this topic... i had nothing to do with what you stated above, and it is very unfortunate and we have as a nation truly set them up. I know of no Native American that isn't taken care of at this point in time. and i frankly do not know any Native American that is subjected to any form of racism (NOT SAYING IT DOESN'T HAPPEN), all i'm saying is, it's different today, in my view of the world - and I live in the South - not the SouthWest - so obviously, my opinion means nothing.

    also - how long do we have to abide and walk on glass? when can things get back to normal? basically every ethnic group has done something wrong to one or the other. and in the end, it's the whitey that gets the mud on their faces?

    need i remind you that the tribes you speak of warred against each other long before the first American stepped foot here. they also took prisoners, and treated them as slaves. anyone demeaning those Indian nations for that or holding them accountable? NO, all you hear is how bad the American Gov't was - not how bad they were to each other either. - why is one worse than the other is my questions? in my view - neither should be let off the hook - but yet the whitey gov't is the only one that is talked about in bad light.

    but i do agree - if the tribe leader wants Redskins removed - then I think they have a right for that to not be used.

    In the end who gives a crap - change it from Atlanta Braves to Atlanta Ding Dongs - no males will get offended at that (I think).

    I think as a society we view geoncide in a different light than war, but if you don't I won't try to persuade you.

    Alonzo Harris

  • Heres the thing about what people find offensive.

    I am a bland white guy. I have never had to face anything that I consider truly offensive about being a bland white guy. I cannot however, say what is going to be offensive to other groups of people. I think its hilarious that we have people on this message board, proudly proclaiming what Native Americans or Blacks or women or Inuits or whatever different group should find offensive.

    Oh, so some white, middle class guy in Alabama isnt offended by something that he has no clue about? THAT should make everything okay.

    It doesnt matter if YOU think its offensive. It only matters if the people that a racial or ethnic comment is directed towards are offended. Get it?

    AlwaysMore

  • TroyTide said...

    Yeah I know where the term "Indian" came from, Columbus being wrong. I also know most Indians refer to themselves as Indian or American Indian and Native American.

    As far as I know Braves is just the name of a baseball team. Redskins is the only one that could possibly even be construed as racist, even then that franchise in no way is mocking Indians.

    Nothing in the quoted post is news to me.

    Educate yourself on how they view those names, not on what tribes are. Then you can form your own conclusions about it, just don't make a sweeping judgement because you have one Indian friend who thinks one way is what I'm asking.

    Alonzo Harris

  • Alonzo Harris said...

    I think as a society we view geoncide in a different light than war, but if you don't I won't try to persuade you.

    so, all the empires conquering other lands??? which is that? war or genocide?

    viper_36

  • AlwaysMore said...

    Heres the thing about what people find offensive.

    I am a bland white guy. I have never had to face anything that I consider truly offensive about being a bland white guy. I cannot however, say what is going to be offensive to other groups of people. I think its hilarious that we have people on this message board, proudly proclaiming what Native Americans or Blacks or women or Inuits or whatever different group should find offensive.

    Oh, so some white, middle class guy in Alabama isnt offended by something that he has no clue about? THAT should make everything okay.

    It doesnt matter if YOU think its offensive. It only matters if the people that a racial or ethnic comment is directed towards are offended. Get it?

    Not really no. People make fun of white people all the time and we don't get offended by it. Hell we make fun of ourselves. I don't "get" what makes other groups think they are so special.

    If an Indian is offended by the names "Braves", then hell with 'em. There is nothing offensive about the name, so they can just get over it.

    If we went around trying to fix everything everybody finds offensive we would spend all our time doing that. So unless it's something that is just blatantly derogatory or mocking some group I think everybody should just move on.

    TroyTide

  • viper_36 said...

    so, all the empires conquering other lands??? which is that? war or genocide?

    Can you think of any examples of this empire conquering where the native people being conquered were driven off their land, sometimes thousands of miles away, into the most desolate and dead areas of that conquered area?

    When Rome conquered Great Britain, they didnt send vast amounts of Britons to go live on some rock in the middle of the Irish Sea. The conquered people were assimilated into the society. 1500 years or so later, those Britons did not send millions of people in India to go live at the base of the Himalayas, when they conquered that nation.

    What the Americans did to the native population here is pretty rare. And it was on a scale that I cannot compare to anywhere else in history.

    AlwaysMore

  • TroyTide said...

    Not really no. People make fun of white people all the time and we don't get offended by it. Hell we make fun of ourselves. I don't "get" what makes other groups think they are so special.

    If an Indian is offended by the names "Braves", then hell with 'em. There is nothing offensive about the name, so they can just get over it.

    If we went around trying to fix everything everybody finds offensive we would spend all our time doing that. So unless it's something that is just blatantly derogatory or mocking some group I think everybody should just move on.

    Now you see? This here is the problem. Your levels of arrogance on proudly saying what should offend other people.

    You make blanket statements on what this society should judge as offensive, and continue that by then saying that your way is the right way.

    Nobody said that you had to fix them all. It just amuses me having you proclaim how other people should react, based entirely on your own very limited world view.

    AlwaysMore

  • viper_36 said...

    so, all the empires conquering other lands??? which is that? war or genocide?

    War, but it depends case to case.

    Involuntarily tying the tubes of women and eliminating races through destruction of any kind of food and sending them on thousand mile marches into uninhabitable land or deliberately infecting them with smallpox is genocide. "Kill the Indian, save the man" also works.

    The United States Bureau of Indian Affairs apologized for "ethnic cleansing".

    Alonzo Harris

  • AlwaysMore said...

    Now you see? This here is the problem. Your levels of arrogance on proudly saying what should offend other people.

    You make blanket statements on what this society should judge as offensive, and continue that by then saying that your way is the right way.

    Nobody said that you had to fix them all. It just amuses me having you proclaim how other people should react, based entirely on your own very limited world view.

    It doesn't make sense to be offended by something that just isn't offensive. I would think that offensive comments, signs, tone, names etc. are pretty universal. It doesn't make sense that naming something the "Indians" would be seen by anybody as being derogatory or offensive. Now if the team was named the "Indians Suck" or the "Trail of Tears" or something like that then yeah you would have a point.

    TroyTide

  • Alonzo Harris said...

    War, but it depends case to case.

    Involuntarily tying the tubes of women and eliminating races through destruction of any kind of food and sending them on thousand mile marches into uninhabitable land or deliberately infecting them with smallpox is genocide. "Kill the Indian, save the man" also works.

    The United States Bureau of Indian Affairs apologized for "ethnic cleansing".

    There was never a genocide. The removal of Indians from their lands was unconscionable, but not that unusual, there was never an attempt to wipe them of the face of the earth. There just wasn't. And the Bureau apologized claiming so, based purely on politics and liberal PC expectations.

    Most of the deaths of Native Americans were from disease, hardly anybody's fault.

    TroyTide

  • TroyTide said...

    It doesn't make sense to be offended by something that just isn't offensive. I would think that offensive comments, signs, tone, names etc. are pretty universal. It doesn't make sense that naming something the "Indians" would be seen by anybody as being derogatory or offensive. Now if the team was named the "Indians Suck" or the "Trail of Tears" or something like that then yeah you would have a point.

    It makes even less sense for you to determine what other people find offensive.

    Its NOT universal, as evidenced by the fact that you cannot grasp why anyone would be offended by Braves, or Redskins, or whatever else. Where is your line? You seem to be okay with Redskins. What about the cartoon Indian the Cleveland Indians use? What about team names like Savages? I myself can see exactly why some of those things are quite offensive.

    I personally do not see why people would be offended by the use of "Braves". But its certainly not up for me to decide why it would offend some native American somewhere. Did you bother to actually ask your friend why he was offended by the usage of the term? You know, instead of going on a message board filled with a bunch of white guys to find this out?

    AlwaysMore

  • TroyTide said...

    There was never a genocide. The removal of Indians from their lands was unconscionable, but not that unusual, there was never an attempt to wipe them of the face of the earth. There just wasn't. And the Bureau apologized claiming so, based purely on politics and liberal PC expectations.

    Most of the deaths of Native Americans were from disease, hardly anybody's fault.

    So tying tubes, killing any source of food, intentionally spreading smallpox, "kill the Indian save the man" isn't ethnic cleansing? Denying people to declare themselves as native because they don't look like it?

    It's pretty easy to die of disease when you don't have any food or shelter and it's 30 degrees outside.

    This post was edited by Alonzo Harris on 4/27/2012 at 3:50 PM

    Alonzo Harris

  • TroyTide said...

    There was never a genocide. The removal of Indians from their lands was unconscionable, but not that unusual, there was never an attempt to wipe them of the face of the earth. There just wasn't. And the Bureau apologized claiming so, based purely on politics and liberal PC expectations.

    Most of the deaths of Native Americans were from disease, hardly anybody's fault.

    What other examples in history can you find of millions of indigenous people being moved hundreds and thousands of miles after conquering and then forced to live on plots of land isolated from the rest of society? You know, if its not that unusual?

    I can point to dozens of examples of that not happening in other conquering army situations. Lets see where else it has happened? Australia? Yep, albiet on a scale one 20th as big. Anywhere in South America? Well no actually, the indiginous people got swallowed up, but they were not displaced and then essentially interred in isolated camps. Brazilians today are a mixed people of natives, slaves and Portuguese for instance. Mexicans are also now a mixed race of Mayan, other native races and Spanish. Did it ever happen in Asia? I dont think so, but maybe you have some example.

    I guess you could point to South Africa as another case.........where else is this the usual historical practice?

    AlwaysMore

  • TroyTide said...

    Well maybe you should be offended, that's the cool thing to be now.

    Never! There's no such thing as an alcoholic in our culture. Just people that enjoy the game of drink.

    signature image

    big john

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