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CMXI said...
What good does it do? It provides context for understanding what Obama has accomplished. As I mention in my 3rd point (which you seem to have completely glossed over), Obama inherited an absolutely FUBAR situation. I point out certain numbers under Bush to emphasize how things have changed for the better under Obama. If someone says "Obama had a high of 14.2 million people on food stamps", that gives an erroneous understanding of the situation. In reality, Obama's high was already lower than the previous president, and the number of people on food stamps is trending down! This is a good thing! By providing context, we avoid the trap of simply throwing out a statistic without any true understanding of what it signifies or what it means.
As for Obama's failures, I don't care about letting his failures stand on their own, of course he's failed in some things, anyone who would deny that is foolish. That's not even close to the reason I cite statistics under Bush. Would you have a problem with right-wing posters citing statistics under Bush as evidence that things have gotten worse under Obama?
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AbsenteeTrojan said...
You say that you are providing context, but if you're truly providing context, citing stats from ONE president isn't good enough. If you claim (as 99% of people do) that Bush was a horrible president, what good does it do to use his stats as context for Obama? Shouldn't you be comparing Obama's numbers to other "good" presidents?
Otherwise you are juicing the stats in Obama's favor.
I'm not in favor of statistical comparisons, period. I'm in favor of the numbers standing on their own. Obama's numbers are not good. It doesn't make Obama look any better IMO just because Bush's were worse.
CMXI ●
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AbsenteeTrojan said...
You say that you are providing context, but if you're truly providing context, citing stats from ONE president isn't good enough. If you claim (as 99% of people do) that Bush was a horrible president, what good does it do to use his stats as context for Obama? Shouldn't you be comparing Obama's numbers to other "good" presidents?
Otherwise you are juicing the stats in Obama's favor.
I'm not in favor of statistical comparisons, period. I'm in favor of the numbers standing on their own. Obama's numbers are not good. It doesn't make Obama look any better IMO just because Bush's were worse.
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CMXI said...
It doesn't make sense to compare Obama's numbers to other presidents because of the circumstances in which they entered office. Obama entered office in the middle of the worst recession this country has seen since the Great Depression. It wouldn't matter who the previous president was, I'd still cite their numbers because they represent the lead-in to Obama's presidency. It just so happens that Bush II is pretty much universally regarded as the worst president in history, but it's not like I'm cherry-picking the worst president ever and comparing Obama's numbers to his. I'm using the president before Obama to provide context for the economy Obama inherited.
Would it be easier for you if I just stopped saying "Bush" and instead said "The 43rd POTUS"?
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dinkmctip said...
Context is also needed to offset the rapid advancement of the population and inflation. OMG WE SPEND ALLTIME HIGH X DOLLARS. Ya, let's compare that to 20 years ago when dollars were not the same. Let's cite population numbers, even though our population is always growing. Spouting off a number without any sort of context is useless. This is sadly what news and rhetoric have devolved into and you are a prime example.
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AbsenteeTrojan said...
I just don't think numbers that Obama had zero impact on help an argument, at all.
I don't use statistics. I look at what Obama has actually put into effect while in office. Policy, laws, etc.
What has he done of substance?
"The Michigan Man is certain he invented the Big Ten, along with intellect, cocktails and sex."
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Wendel Clark said...
Out of recession, terrorists killed, less american lives lost, better environmental standards, more gay rights, saved US auto industry, improved strength of the dollar, good effort in Libya,
"Madness is rare in individuals - but in groups, parties, nations, and ages it is the rule." - Friedrich Nietzsche
joetheogre
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AbsenteeTrojan said...
That is the very definition of leading. You were asking a question with specific answers, intending to LEAD the person to a result. That is LEADING. Think about it for one second, please. If you can't understand that you were trying to LEAD people to see things in a certain way, I can't help you.
"A political call, the fall guy accord...We can't afford to be neutral on a moving train..."
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BamaLivesFootba said...
No. No. No.
A leading question is designed to suggest the answer. The answer I was looking for was only revealed until I stated it in a post much later. One could argue either way for each possible answer posed, but having possible answers does not make it leading.
This post was edited by AbsenteeTrojan on 7/2/2012 at 1:06 PM
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joetheogre
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AbsenteeTrojan said...
Well, first off, you did suggest the answer, because you only provided two possible answers. So that in itself is leading.
Secondly, the question was also leading in the sense that you were trying to get the person to realize the contradiction in the answers. So that is also leading.
Durrr.
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mac1992
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AbsenteeTrojan ●
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AbsenteeTrojan said...
Well, first off, you did suggest the answer, because you only provided two possible answers, one of which was generally racist. So that in itself is leading.
Secondly, the question was also leading in the sense that you were trying to get the person to realize the contradiction in the answers. So that is also leading.
Durrr.
"A political call, the fall guy accord...We can't afford to be neutral on a moving train..."
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BamaLivesFootba said...
No. Any question that provides answerS is not necessarily a leading question. Having multiple answers that does not lead one to an immediate conclusion,but requires thought. In addition, it could possibly be neither. Asking," Is Obama a socialist or a communist?" is nowhere near the same as "Obama is a socialist, isn't he?". I just proposed the questions with an affirmation. It takes no thought.
The original question was not posed for the realization of contradiction. That was going to come later when it was going to be pointed out. One could possibly come to that conclusion independently,but it is not explicitly original as proposed.
This post was edited by AbsenteeTrojan on 7/2/2012 at 1:15 PM
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AbsenteeTrojan ●
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AbsenteeTrojan said...
Yeah, sure. Convince yourself all you want. However, you even point out that a question with multiple answers is "not necessarily a leading question." That implies that you know and acknowledge that a question with multiple answers CAN be a leading question, which your were.
Those questions are a joke, and you know they were an attempt to lead people to a certain answer.
"A political call, the fall guy accord...We can't afford to be neutral on a moving train..."
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BamaLivesFootba said...
Wait. What's partisan about pointing about the reality that Obama is none of the following:a socialist,a communist,a radical Christian,a muslim, an atheist (well he may be,but you can only take his word for his faith),a fool,a tyrant,and his mandate is not socialism?
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dinkmctip said...
I did see the questions as a joke, but they weren't trying to lead you to an answer. They were trying to point out that all of those contradictory statements have been used by the same people to answer the same questions. Like you, they do not understand what they are talking about and just say something negative hoping no one notices.
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