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shavisimo2 said...
Ok. I'm obviously not going to convince any of you, so I'll leave it at this. IMO, thinking Verlander compares to any of those guys, at this point, is premature and an incredibly homer viewpoint. He's had exactly 3 good seasons in his career. Last year, he was behind both Halladay and Sabathia in most advanced metrics, but, yes, he was still the best pitcher in baseball. It just wasn't as big of a gap as Tigers fans like to think. This year, he's likely to be the best again. But to say he's as good or better than many of the greats of all time, is simply premature. He's not Koufax or Johnson or Clemens or any other name yet. He's a great pitcher. Come talk to me in 2015 and he'll likely compare well to those guys. Right now, he simply does not.
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mpcoan said...
I know he was a lefty. His longevity and overall stats still put him ahead of JV. Still not sure how that's an insult.
Johnson was 2nd all time in strikeouts, won 5 Cy Youngs, and had a no hitter and perfect game. Until he does it for years, it's unfair to compare JV to him.
This post was edited by ScoutExile on 5/19/2012 at 3:35 PM
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ScoutExile said...
JV has 2 no-hitters, and an MVP. Johnson never had an MVP (unless you count World Series MVP). Odds are that JV will have many more no-hitters (hell, he was one out away from #3 last night), and probably pitch a perfect game, too.
Other things Randy Johnson never did (that Verlander already has):Won the quadruple crown with strikeouts (250), wins (24), ERA (2.40) and WHIP (0.92) in 2011. Only pitcher in baseball history to be Rookie of the Year, start in a World Series game, toss a no-hitter, and be an All-Star in his first two full seasons.
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ScoutExile said...
JV has 2 no-hitters, and an MVP. Johnson never had an MVP (unless you count World Series MVP). Odds are that JV will have many more no-hitters (hell, he was one out away from #3 last night), and probably pitch a perfect game, too.
Other things Randy Johnson never did (that Verlander already has):Won the quadruple crown with strikeouts (250), wins (24), ERA (2.40) and WHIP (0.92) in 2011. Only pitcher in baseball history to be Rookie of the Year, start in a World Series game, toss a no-hitter, and be an All-Star in his first two full seasons.
This post was edited by Alonzo Harris on 5/19/2012 at 4:09 PM
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mpcoan said...
Dude, seriously?
"Odds are that JV will have many more no hitters (hell he was one out away from #3 last night) and probably pitch a perfect game, too."
I've said he's the best today. That's way too homer to say it's probably he'll get a perfect game and many more no hitters. Insane.
This post was edited by ScoutExile on 5/19/2012 at 4:49 PM
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mpcoan said...
Dude, seriously?
"Odds are that JV will have many more no hitters (hell he was one out away from #3 last night) and probably pitch a perfect game, too."
I've said he's the best today. That's way too homer to say it's probably he'll get a perfect game and many more no hitters. Insane.
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ScoutExile said...
JV has 2 no-hitters, and an MVP. Johnson never had an MVP (unless you count World Series MVP). Odds are that JV will have many more no-hitters (hell, he was one out away from #3 last night), and probably pitch a perfect game, too.
Other things Randy Johnson never did (that Verlander already has):Won the quadruple crown with strikeouts (250), wins (24), ERA (2.40) and WHIP (0.92) in 2011. Only pitcher in baseball history to be Rookie of the Year, start in a World Series game, toss a no-hitter, and be an All-Star in his first two full seasons.
#DicedPineapples
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thejumper5 said...
False.
mpcoan's very first response to the notion that Verlander "will have many more no-hitters (hell, he was one out away from #3 last night), and probably pitch a perfect game, too" was:
"I've said he's the best today. That's way too homer to say it's probably he'll get a perfect game and many more no hitters. Insane."
He clearly is saying that notion of "many more" is crazy. He is in no way referencing the concept of Verlander having one no-hitter.
My two cents: To say that Verlander will have another no-hitter, maybe even 2 is reasonable. To say that he will have "many more" or to predict a perfect game is irrational.
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by ScoutExile on 5/19/2012 at 8:22 PM
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shavisimo2 said...
Verlander is right up there with Clemens and Randy Johnson because of 1 great year and one great April and half of May? You realize that was what I was responding to, right?
This post was edited by SpartyFever on 5/19/2012 at 10:58 PM
Being called a sunshine blower is not insulting to me and I'm proud to be one.
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shavisimo2 said...
I made the original post in response to a post comparing him to Koufax and Randy Johnson saying he's not at that level, then you said he has a Cy Young and MVP so he is then I said, you realize I was responding to a post saying he's in with the all time greats and now you're saying something about last season. You're the one not connecting on what was actually discussed.
JV is the best pitcher today. JV is not an all-timer at this point. I don't know why so many Tigers fans are taking offense to that, it's not insulting at all.
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Maize&Blue said...
I think it's semantics. When you use the words best pitcher I think of how good the guy was in his prime. Not necessarily his career stats. I agree JV hasn't reached the career numbers as the all time greats but he is as good as any of them were in their prime.
#DicedPineapples
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shavisimo2 said...
I still disagree, but I do undersand where you're coming from. I need a longer sampling to say his prime is just as good as others' primes. He's really only had 2 great seasons so far. Sure, he's the best pitcher in the game, but to me just as good as them means he'll have a good deal more than 2 great seasons. However, I think he'll end up there barring injury.
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shavisimo2 said...
Haha, I think he has the potential to be just as good, but is still looking up. We're never gonna connect on this. How about we leave it at, he's the best pitcher in the majors today by a good bit.
whatever you say man. If you think JV hasn't reached his potential then i feel very sorry for the guys who have to face him. WillyWolverine
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Maize&Blue said...
whatever you say man. If you think JV hasn't reached his potential then i feel very sorry for the guys who have to face him.
Nope, I think he's pretty close to maxed out (not a knock on him), just that he needs to hold it for a longer period of time to get to where I'd be comfortable putting him in that company - and he has the potential to do that.
I will not let you get in the last word
Kidding, I'm done, but he's great. #DicedPineapples
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Justin Verlander