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Morgan Freeman

  • goodnews said...

    Firstly Omega, insults are beneath you and have no place in productive debate. Be a grown up please. Those who use insults don't have much else to offer. Secondly, you haven't thought it through all the way. My understanding of the world, universe, meaning of life, etc., has grown exponentially during my lifetime. Many of my previously held beliefs have ended up wrong, sometimes even the exact opposite of right. Without a complete frame of reference many things seem true with limited knowledge only to be proven wrong when additional truth comes to the fore. So again, logically, you cannot rightfully or definitively say you know anything without knowing everything. If you cannot see all ends you always have to allow for the possibility that you're wrong. Since none of us knows everything we would need to rely one one who does know everything in order to know anything. You haven't fully and objectively looked at Jesus yet.

    First part of your statement, one learns as they go through life and gain experience. Check, I can get behind that. Second part of your statement, an incomplete frame of reference may skew your understanding of the world around you and lead to erroneous conclusions. Check, with you so far.

    Then you make a huge nonsensical leap with the third part of your statement by saying that you can't know anything without knowing everything. The first to parts of your statement did nothing to lead you in that direction. I don't see how a third party knowing everything is necessary for me knowing anything.

    There is one thing I KNOW that I do not need any foreign party to verify. "I think, therefore I am" ~ Descartes

    You haven't demonstrated that there needs to be a link between one person knowing everything and another separate person knowing anything. You haven't demonstrated that there is a being that knows everything.

    The last part of your statement is just the no true Scottsman falacy. You can do better than that. Though you might be right because I wasn't objective when I was searching since I wanted there to be a god.

    This post was edited by OmegaBuckeye on 6/11/2012 at 11:46 AM

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • No one can convince me something is true if I ascribe to there being absolute truth?

    Edit: because I would contend that the only one who could be convinced of something is one that believed that something was absolutely true.

    This post was edited by DookieJones on 6/11/2012 at 10:36 AM

    DookieJones

  • DookieJones said...

    No one can convince me something is true if I ascribe to there being absolute truth?

    No - no one can convince you of anything other than absolute truth because you will readily admit that it 'has to be true'.

    ramssuperbowl99

  • DookieJones said...

    Absolute truth exists. For somebody to make a statement here, they wanted all to agree was true, Truth itself would have to exist as it's own flowing end.

    Therefore, "anything" now becomes based on "everything" that is true.

    This is the logic the bible teaches.

    Your premise has absolutley nothing to do with a god.

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • OmegaBuckeye said...

    Your premise has absolutley nothing to do with a god.

    Which premise?

    DookieJones

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    No - no one can convince you of anything other than absolute truth because you will readily admit that it 'has to be true'.

    What else would I want to be convinced of except what is true? Am I missing something?

    DookieJones

  • goodnews said...

    Bama, stop being a little baby. I do know you. And, you're done b/c you don't like it when you've been backed into an intellectual corner. I know the type, I've debated them many times. Like it or not I've been exactly where you are or, or pretty close to it. The truth is, if we're being intellectually honest, you cannot logically say you know anything unless you know everything. There's no way out of that logical quandry. You may not like it, but that doesn't make it any less true. I found my way back to my childhood faith b/c after years of wandering I realized I was being the douche. I have been there and back again in the realm of religion/philosophy/meaning of life stuff. Jesus is the truth. I don't know how to say it w/o sounding condescending. But, I really think you have something more than most. No one on this board understands the intricacies and realities of economics and some realms of politics any better than you, for example. I just hate to see you waste your God given gifts on that which is intellectually beneath you and consistently illogical in the realm of what really matters.

    To quote what someone once said.

    Firstly Omega, insults are beneath you and have no place in productive debate. Be a grown up please. Those who use insults don't have much else to offer. ~ Goodnews

    I'm pretty sure some people consider being called a baby to be an insult. In fact the entire tone of this post is insulting.

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • DookieJones said...

    Which premise?

    The concept of an Absolute truth.

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • OmegaBuckeye said...

    The concept of an Absolute truth.

    Even if it has nothing to do with God, do you agree with the premise?

    DookieJones

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    No - no one can convince you of anything other than absolute truth because you will readily admit that it 'has to be true'.

    People are convinced of falsehoods all the time ramssuperbowl, so I'm not sure the point you are making.

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • DookieJones said...

    Even if it has nothing to do with God, do you agree with the premise?

    I would have to know what you define an absolute truth as being.

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • OmegaBuckeye said...

    People are convinced of falsehoods all the time ramssuperbowl, so I'm not sure the point you are making.

    Oh I know, but it's worth pointing out to people who are convinced of falsehoods that they aren't being intellectually honest.

    ramssuperbowl99

  • I am thinking of absolute truth like this.

    attachment

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    Oh I know, but it's worth pointing out to people who are convinced of falsehoods that they aren't being intellectually honest.

    I'm trying to be as intellectually honest as possible. I've already told you that I'm convinced falsehoods exist. Only that I believe that the opposite of falsehood exists.

    You seem to believe that falsehoods exist also, and that you believe that to be true, absolutely.

    It's not a deception to say that I can only be convinced that I'm wrong if I believe what you are saying is right.

    This post was edited by DookieJones on 6/11/2012 at 11:07 AM

    DookieJones

  • OmegaBuckeye said...

    I am thinking of absolute truth like this.

    Absolutely.

    DookieJones

  • goodnews said...

    All reasoning is circular reasoning Bama. We all begin from a certain jumping off point in an effort to find our way back. You're really good at impressive semantics. I'm not saying that to be patronistic. But, you'll learn that simple arguments usually win the day. As a fellow 5'10" male I can tell you definitively that being fallible is inherent to us all. And that is precisely the reason we need the infallible to truly know anything. Think about it. And, in reality we all use some form of faith. You folks who think you can know anything w/o an omniscient God practice faith more than any of us. There's just so much you must assume to hold the views that you seem to hold. It's not absurd when you're more interested in objectivity and truth than you are at being some sort of rebel simply b/c you think it's sexy to be different and smarter than everyone else. I used to be the same way so i'm not judging.

    Wow.

    You may very well be the first I ever ignore on a message board. Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, Agnostic...whatever, if this doesn't offend the reader then something is wrong upstairs.

    If I were on the line about my beliefs, that post would have me screaming in the opposite direction. In this debate, you are less and less approachable the more I read. Congratulations because there's no way that wasn't your goal.

    signature image signature image signature image

    MsnBama

  • DookieJones said...

    Absolutely.

    Then yes... I believe there is such thing as truth. We perceive what we can about it. I think we should use science, logic, and our perceptions to try and find the truth with the acceptance that these tools aren't perfect and we can be mislead. One should be willing to adjust their world view as they learn and come accross new evidence.

    This post was edited by OmegaBuckeye on 6/11/2012 at 11:49 AM

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    Oh I know, but it's worth pointing out to people who are convinced of falsehoods that they aren't being intellectually honest.

    Sorry, just didn't see what you were going for there.

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • DookieJones said...

    I'm trying to be as intellectually honest as possible. I've already told you that I'm convinced falsehoods exist. Only that I believe that the opposite of falsehood exists.

    You seem to believe that falsehoods exist also, and that you believe that to be true, absolutely.

    It's not a deception to say that I can only be convinced that I'm wrong if I believe what you are saying is right.

    Now the question to ask you is, "does "Absolute Truth" need to be tied to a god for it to exist?"

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • goodnews said...

    Bama, stop being a little baby.

    goodnews said...

    Those who use insults don't have much else to offer.

    swirl

    signature image signature image signature image

    MsnBama

  • goodnews said...

    Since none of us knows everything we would need to rely one one who does know everything in order to know anything. You haven't fully and objectively looked at Jesus yet.

    So since you do not know all, how can you say that Jesus does?

    This post was edited by weagle247 on 6/11/2012 at 12:23 PM

    weagle247

  • This has been interesting to say the least. I believe GoodNews is failing you all by not finishing his sentence. I believe it went like this, " you don't know anything unless you know everything", I would amend that to say it in terms of perspective....So, "you don't know anything unless you know everything on the road", so to speak. So none of us know the length or breadth of the road ahead. So I think GoodNews is saying that without that knowledge individually we know nothing of the journey. We may walk one way or another, observe rocks that exist, breath air that sustains, but without knowing the entire journey we truly know nothing as it relates to that journey. Furthermore I believe GoodNews is suggesting that since we 'know nothing' we seek someone/something that will know everything related to the journey. Maybe it is drugs, religion, politics, money, general disbelief, active disobedience, etc. but in the end (which we don't know until then) it was all filler for the journey. In the end you are the most important person in your journey but only a bump in the road for the overall journey of life (as an example).

    GoodNews may have made some immediate enemies but if you take a bit of an objective view of what he wrote when reading it there is some sense of logic to it from the perspective of an omiscient being.

    obvious troll

    rice77

  • rice77 said...

    This has been interesting to say the least. I believe GoodNews is failing you all by not finishing his sentence. I believe it went like this, " you don't know anything unless you know everything", I would amend that to say it in terms of perspective....So, "you don't know anything unless you know everything on the road", so to speak. So none of us know the length or breadth of the road ahead. So I think GoodNews is saying that without that knowledge individually we know nothing of the journey. We may walk one way or another, observe rocks that exist, breath air that sustains, but without knowing the entire journey we truly know nothing as it relates to that journey. Furthermore I believe GoodNews is suggesting that since we 'know nothing' we seek someone/something that will know everything related to the journey. Maybe it is drugs, religion, politics, money, general disbelief, active disobedience, etc. but in the end (which we don't know until then) it was all filler for the journey. In the end you are the most important person in your journey but only a bump in the road for the overall journey of life (as an example).

    GoodNews may have made some immediate enemies but if you take a bit of an objective view of what he wrote when reading it there is some sense of logic to it from the perspective of an omiscient being.

    Even if what we now know or understand is infinitesimal, compared to what we will gain over a couple hundred thousand years, it is still something and does not require a god that knows everything to exist. We don't search for something that will have the answers for everything. We search for the answers themselves.

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • OmegaBuckeye said...

    Now the question to ask you is, "does "Absolute Truth" need to be tied to a god for it to exist?"

    No. You can believe truth exist without tying it to God. I choose to align what I hope is true with statements the bible makes. To each man his own.

    Edit: I will state that in this particular case, I do believe absolute truth to be God. Therefore, we come to an impasse, where I could be wrong but have hope that I'm right, and we disagree with what the truth is. If I'm wrong, it only confirms there is a right.

    This post was edited by DookieJones on 6/11/2012 at 1:55 PM

    DookieJones

  • ramssuperbowl99 said...

    The idea that we can know nothing until we know everything is completely insane. We know, for example, that Rueben Foster has verbally committed to play football for Alabama. We also know things like gravity is a force on two objects of mass and results in the distance between those two objects shrinking.

    That said, there are also things we do not know. For example, we do not know whether Robert Nkediche will play football for a particular university. We also don't know if the flying spaghetti monster is looking over us. I don't know what you had for breakfast this morning. You, on the other hand, probably do know what you had for breakfast.

    And the second statement was simply me spelling out your given logical reason for believing in god (and, not just any particular god, but the one you were raised to believe as a child - what a strange coincidence that is).

    I'm sorry, but I thought it was obvious we were discussing things of a more profound and cosmic nature. But, to play along, it's true (I assume) that Rueben Foster has verbally committed to play for Bama. But, we don't have a clue as to the full ramifications of all that. That decision, assuming it sticks, with affect many, many things moving forward in the big scheme of things. So, right now we cannot truly know what it all means. All we have is an apparent surface understanding of his action while so much hangs in the balance. As to gravity, we know so little about it, or any other of the forces of the universe, that it's really not a good analogy for your point of view, IMHO.

    As to the spagetti monster. There is absolutely no evidence for such a creature. So, I'm not sure why you would pin your reputation to it. I had grits for breakfast.

    Finally, I came back to my childhood faith b/c it is truth.

    signature image

    South Carolina Gamecocks. The 2010 National College Baseball Champs.

    goodnews

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