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MildReTIDEation said...
I am being dead serious on this one. I am sitting here trying to think about it and I can't figure out why he had such a great influence. I must be forgetting something that I learned after 13 years of Catholic school.
-He died for our sins. If I was presented with the opportunity to sacrifice myself in order to rescue EVERYONE THAT WILL EVER EXIST in the present and in the future, then I wouldn't even hesitate to agree. Hell, I would do this right now for my family.
Besides, everyone is going to die, EXCEPT JESUS. He was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Also, Jesus KNEW he was going to heaven afterwards, so where is the sacrifice?
-He performed miracles If all of the miracles in the Bible are true, then he certainly was a special person. The problem I have is that people are easily deceived, even today. People during that time could only be more influenced.
There are many "holy people" alive today that have followers that believe they regularly perform divine acts.
How was Jesus so different?
-He had followers. Not many though. David Koresh was able to get dozens of people to believe he was the messiah and devote themselves to him. Jesus only had 12 apostles and maybe a handful of others while was alive.
Perhaps Jesus' greatest accomplishment was setting up for his followers to spread his word successfully. Somehow, a couple dozen people turned into a billion.
This post was edited by goodnews on 5/10/2012 at 3:23 PM
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VTSmitty
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goodnews said...
Legitimate question.
Jesus' suffering and death were much more significant thatt what you've espoused. In order to be the Savior of the world He'd first have to accomplish a perfectly sinless life. This means He was pure in thought, word and deed even though He was tempted like we are continually tempted (Hebrews 4:15). When we add to this Jesus' own words that breaking God's law happens in the heart (your inner intentions), and only manifests itself in the actions (see Matthew 5), then His perfect life becomes that much more impressive. Next, Isaiah 53 (read this) describes for us the type of lonely and rejected life Jesus would live. That would play out in His life, and especially when He needed His family and friends the most. He was abandoned by all only to suffer alone. Still, He asked God to forgive us, even from the Cross. I could give numerous passges regarding how He suffered. But, it should suffice to point out that He never once complained about the physical torment He suffered. Mel Gibson's, "The Passion," might be a slightly exaggerated version of the physical torment He endured. Yet, it's probably in the ballpark. But, even then, He never commented on the physical torment, which must have been quite extensive. His prayer at Gethsemane and His cries from the Cross, were descriptions of His experience of utter and eternal torment of one abandoned by God. By taking the punishment of us all on His own shoulders He experienced all of the eternal torment that would be ours by Himself. We can't even begin to fathom. And, remember, He did this as a totally innocent sacrifice.
As to His followers. His message didn't ring true to a fallen world until His death and resurrection. What's amazing is how rapidly His Church grew, after His resurrection, despite the fact that the Romans hated the Church, and the Church's message was to follow a guy who had been executed by the State. Can you imagine trying to start a religious movement while touting the life, teachings, and death of an executed criminal whose followers all abandoned Him? Add to that the fact that the women were the first ones He appeared to with His original message after His resurrection (it was a very chauvinistic society that didn't put much stock in the word of a woman). The only possible explanation was that His message is so very true and life changing.
I can do more if you wish.
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MildReTIDEation said...
I am being dead serious on this one. I am sitting here trying to think about it and I can't figure out why he had such a great influence. I must be forgetting something that I learned after 13 years of Catholic school.
-He died for our sins. If I was presented with the opportunity to sacrifice myself in order to rescue EVERYONE THAT WILL EVER EXIST in the present and in the future, then I wouldn't even hesitate to agree. Hell, I would do this right now for my family.
Besides, everyone is going to die, EXCEPT JESUS. He was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Also, Jesus KNEW he was going to heaven afterwards, so where is the sacrifice?
-He performed miracles If all of the miracles in the Bible are true, then he certainly was a special person. The problem I have is that people are easily deceived, even today. People during that time could only be more influenced.
There are many "holy people" alive today that have followers that believe they regularly perform divine acts.
How was Jesus so different?
-He had followers. Not many though. David Koresh was able to get dozens of people to believe he was the messiah and devote themselves to him. Jesus only had 12 apostles and maybe a handful of others while was alive.
Perhaps Jesus' greatest accomplishment was setting up for his followers to spread his word successfully. Somehow, a couple dozen people turned into a billion.
Your = you are. Stupid. You're is possessive hence the apostrophe. Duh. Ro' Tide!
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MildReTIDEation said...
The Apostles were first-hand witnesses to the miracles, the Resurrection, etc. They had great reasons to believe and spread the word.
One might argue that it didn't start out being a faith based religion, but only transformed into one.
Your = you are. Stupid. You're is possessive hence the apostrophe. Duh. Ro' Tide!
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VTSmitty said...
Very true. I heard a sermon once to that effect, and it talked about the generation that knew Jesus and saw miracles first hand, and then their children, grandchildren, etc., until the generations no longer had anyone who could speak in first hand knowledge, and as you said, it really did transform into a faith based religion.
This is true to a large extent, however, faith has always been at the foundation of it. Bible says He that Comes to God must first Believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
Also says without faith, it is impossible to please God...so I agree and also disagree
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goodnews said...
Legitimate question.
Jesus' suffering and death were much more significant thatt what you've espoused. In order to be the Savior of the world He'd first have to accomplish a perfectly sinless life. This means He was pure in thought, word and deed even though He was tempted like we are continually tempted (Hebrews 4:15). When we add to this Jesus' own words that breaking God's law happens in the heart (your inner intentions), and only manifests itself in the actions (see Matthew 5), then His perfect life becomes that much more impressive. How many people have I wanted to hurt badly in 5 oclock traffic, or how many women have I had sex with in my head? Next, Isaiah 53 (read this) describes for us the type of lonely and rejected life Jesus would live. That would play out in His life, and especially when He needed His family and friends the most. He was abandoned by all only to suffer alone. Still, He asked God to forgive us, even from the Cross. I could give numerous passges regarding how He suffered. But, it should suffice to point out that He never once complained about the physical torment He suffered. Mel Gibson's, "The Passion," might be a slightly exaggerated version of the physical torment He endured. Yet, it's probably in the ballpark. But, even then, He never commented on the physical torment, which must have been quite extensive. His prayer at Gethsemane and His cries from the Cross, were descriptions of His experience of utter and eternal torment of one abandoned by God. By taking the punishment of us all on His own shoulders He experienced all of the eternal torment that would be ours by Himself. We can't even begin to fathom. And, remember, He did this as a totally innocent sacrifice.
As to His followers. His message didn't ring true to a fallen world until His death and resurrection. What's amazing is how rapidly His Church grew, after His resurrection, despite the fact that the Romans hated the Church, and the Church's message was to follow a guy who had been executed by the State. Can you imagine trying to start a religious movement while touting the life, teachings, and death of an executed criminal whose followers all abandoned Him? Add to that the fact that the women were the first ones He appeared to with His original message after His resurrection (it was a very chauvinistic society that didn't put much stock in the word of a woman). The only possible explanation was that His message is so very true and life changing.
I can do more if you wish.
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jkt360 said...
He was the only person to walk this world not in sin which is why his sacrifice was able to take the place of sinners damnation. The decision to sacrifice himself was not the remarkable thing but rather his ability to. I doubt Jesus put much thought in his decision to do it and I haven't read any where that suggests otherwise.
So technically with what you are saying, if you were "presented the same opportunity" to save everybody, you were presented that opportunity; all you had to do was never sin, and sacrifice your purity for all impurity.
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MildReTIDEation said...
I am being dead serious on this one. I am sitting here trying to think about it and I can't figure out why he had such a great influence. I must be forgetting something that I learned after 13 years of Catholic school.
-He died for our sins. If I was presented with the opportunity to sacrifice myself in order to rescue EVERYONE THAT WILL EVER EXIST in the present and in the future, then I wouldn't even hesitate to agree. Hell, I would do this right now for my family.
Besides, everyone is going to die, EXCEPT JESUS. He was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Also, Jesus KNEW he was going to heaven afterwards, so where is the sacrifice?
-He performed miracles If all of the miracles in the Bible are true, then he certainly was a special person. The problem I have is that people are easily deceived, even today. People during that time could only be more influenced.
There are many "holy people" alive today that have followers that believe they regularly perform divine acts.
How was Jesus so different?
-He had followers. Not many though. David Koresh was able to get dozens of people to believe he was the messiah and devote themselves to him. Jesus only had 12 apostles and maybe a handful of others while was alive.
Perhaps Jesus' greatest accomplishment was setting up for his followers to spread his word successfully. Somehow, a couple dozen people turned into a billion.
This post and its contents is not meant to demean or marginalize the contributions of Jim Tressel as Head Coach at The Ohio State University
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AlwaysMore said...
His ideas were pretty revolutionary, and threatened the elite and powerful of the time period. As Mel Gibson could tell you, if he could stop drinking long enough, he was not well liked among most Jews of the period. Since he spoke almost exclusively to Jews, its not surprising that his message was not taken with any good nature.
If Christ was right, it means that Judiasm is a dead religion. Pretty much everything about it is revised and updated by Christian teachings. That is why Jews did not accept Jesus, despite him being Jewish himself.
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pstrjohn said...
Jesus actually did have thousands of followers, not just those identified as "disciples or Apostles". I cite a couple for you. On at least two different occasions, both of which are recorded in the Bible, He fed thousands of His followers miraculously. Matthew 14 records the account of feeding 5000 and Mark 8 records the feeding of 400. These were only the men (they did not count the women or children in those days when they would number a crowd) so it is actually plausible that the number could range much higher than that given that most married and had large families.
In Acts 2 the first post resurrection sermon, by Peter, resulted in 3000 being converted at one time and then the wording says that the numbers were added to daily, and later it says they were multiplied.
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goodnews said...
Legitimate question.
Jesus' suffering and death were much more significant thatt what you've espoused. In order to be the Savior of the world He'd first have to accomplish a perfectly sinless life. This means He was pure in thought, word and deed even though He was tempted like we are continually tempted (Hebrews 4:15). When we add to this Jesus' own words that breaking God's law happens in the heart (your inner intentions), and only manifests itself in the actions (see Matthew 5), then His perfect life becomes that much more impressive. How many people have I wanted to hurt badly in 5 oclock traffic, or how many women have I had sex with in my head? Next, Isaiah 53 (read this) describes for us the type of lonely and rejected life Jesus would live. That would play out in His life, and especially when He needed His family and friends the most. He was abandoned by all only to suffer alone. Still, He asked God to forgive us, even from the Cross. I could give numerous passges regarding how He suffered. But, it should suffice to point out that He never once complained about the physical torment He suffered. Mel Gibson's, "The Passion," might be a slightly exaggerated version of the physical torment He endured. Yet, it's probably in the ballpark. But, even then, He never commented on the physical torment, which must have been quite extensive. His prayer at Gethsemane and His cries from the Cross, were descriptions of His experience of utter and eternal torment of one abandoned by God. By taking the punishment of us all on His own shoulders He experienced all of the eternal torment that would be ours by Himself. We can't even begin to fathom. And, remember, He did this as a totally innocent sacrifice.
As to His followers. His message didn't ring true to a fallen world until His death and resurrection. What's amazing is how rapidly His Church grew, after His resurrection, despite the fact that the Romans hated the Church, and the Church's message was to follow a guy who had been executed by the State. Can you imagine trying to start a religious movement while touting the life, teachings, and death of an executed criminal whose followers all abandoned Him? Add to that the fact that the women were the first ones He appeared to with His original message after His resurrection (it was a very chauvinistic society that didn't put much stock in the word of a woman). The only possible explanation was that His message is so very true and life changing.
I can do more if you wish.
"As far as the downvotes. It's a gnat biting an lion" -- A member of tRCMB Justice League, taking the internet WAY WAY too seriously.
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MildReTIDEation said...
If what he experienced was so incredibly terrible, then that leads me to question the existence of Hell being a proper punishment for modern people who might lack faith or were never exposed to Christianity. I don't want to derail the thread though, so lets shelve that topic.
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Questions I have about about Jesus...