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Questions I have about about Jesus...

  • shoeless7777 said...

    the Pauline Epistles give the best evidence about Jesus the man and healer - they were written several decades before the 4 gospels ( 2 of which : Mathew and John which were written by eyewitnesses ) ; roman Tacitus a historian from the ancient world wrote about " the Christ " and followers and their persection by Pontius Pilot and finally Flavius Josephus , famous Jewish historian , wrote about James whose brother was called Christ

    The Pauline Epistles are just another name for books of the bible written by Paul. Tacitus was post Jesus by about 75 years, and wrote mostly about events of his time, which was persecution of early Christians. (Although he does write about Pilate and Jesus, its well after the fact.)

    The Josephus stuff I had not read about in years, and frankly had forgotten it. Its the only item written from close to Christs time, that mentions Christ. I think thats pretty good evidence right there.

    Its certainly not a massive amount of evidence. Its one writer with one passage. Here is one translation I found online about what he says.

    "At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of the people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out."

    AlwaysMore

  • good stuff , thanks +1

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    shoeless7777

  • shoeless7777 said...

    the dead sea scrolls that were released in 1991 refer directly to the New Testament and to the life of Jesus Christ ; these scrolls actually mention the crucifixion of Jesus Christ as well as the Christ who died for the sins of many

    They dont. Thats an urban myth put out there by certain writers in the early 1990's, to people that would not actually look at the scrolls.

    The only Messiah mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls is the one that has not appeared yet. The Messiah that Jews still think has yet to arrive. The depictions in the Messiah Scroll, as its called, was not a historical record, but a prophecy about future events. Certain people have twisted that to be about Jesus, when it patently is not.

    AlwaysMore

  • sounds great ...thanks brother

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    shoeless7777

  • I think an important question got lost in the midst of all of this. What if a person truly wants to believe in god but truly cannot bring himself to do it? You can't just force yourself to believe in something you don't believe in.

    EnterTheOcho

  • ilovelamp51 said...

    It's not about being good or bad. The bible says there are actually none that are good. We get a reward bc God loves us & wants to bless us... It shouldn't be the sole purpose of our faith though. We should love God out of thanksgiving, respect, obedience, fear, etc.

    Well said lamp.

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    South Carolina Gamecocks. The 2010 National College Baseball Champs.

    goodnews

  • goodnews said...

    Always More,

    You are exactly right about GW. You couldn't be more wrong about Jesus. I don't know what your background in this is but you are terribly misinformed. I have researched it some and no one passes the tests of source criticism like Jesus of Nazareth, and not even close. And, to give you another reliable source, Anne Rice (the famous author) decided to write a book a few years ago on Jesus. As any good author she did her research. What she found shocked her. The manuscript evidence for Jesus was so overwhelmingly good, and the scholarship against him was so incredibly bad and dishonest, that she renounced her atheism and started going back to church. I respect your opinion, but please know what you're talking about before jumping to conclusions.

    So, of the writers of the Bible, who actually met and spoke with Jesus?

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    MichRedWingFan7

  • Tim Smith wrote an amazing book about Hitler but never met the man ...

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    shoeless7777

  • shoeless7777 said...

    Tim Smith wrote an amazing book about Hitler but never met the man ...

    but did some people who wrote about Hitler ever see him, talk to him, etc?

    I can find a picture of Hitler with the pope

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by MichRedWingFan7 on 5/11/2012 at 9:24 PM

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    MichRedWingFan7

  • Johnny Appleseed wrote a book about the prophet Muhammad .. ? didnt mean to be an arse

    This post was edited by shoeless7777 on 5/11/2012 at 9:36 PM

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    shoeless7777

  • shoeless7777 said...

    Johnny Appleseed wrote a book about the prophet Muhammad ..got a photo of him ?

    never asked about him. I thought you were responding to my post right before yours ... I guess I was wrong.

    You seem to be proving my point though.

    This post was edited by MichRedWingFan7 on 5/11/2012 at 9:38 PM

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    MichRedWingFan7

  • i was and my point is that just b/c you dont have a photo of someone or you dont personally know the person doesnt mean the person didnt exist ; two of the apostles knew him and wrote major parts of the bible ..Paul wrote almost 1/2 of the New Testament ...sorry about my earlier reply - not trying to be a jerk

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    shoeless7777

  • shoeless7777 said...

    i was and my point is that just b/c you dont have a photo of someone or you dont personally know the person doesnt mean the person didnt exist ; two of the apostles knew him and wrote major parts of the bible ..Paul wrote almost 1/2 of the New Testament ...sorry about my earlier reply - not trying to be a jerk

    Paul was not an Apostle and never met Jesus.
    Saul persecuted Christians after Jesus' death and fell off his donkey, hit his head and had a spiritual revulation. He became Paul after falling on his head.

    He never met Jesus or could possibly write of a direct quote.

    This post was edited by MichRedWingFan7 on 5/11/2012 at 9:43 PM

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    MichRedWingFan7

  • your right ...my bad - two of the gospels were written by his apostles Mathew and John - they were eyewitness to jesus and his ministry

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    shoeless7777

  • shoeless7777 said...

    your right ...my bad - two of the gospels were written by his apostles Mathew and John - they were eyewitness to jesus and his ministry

    You might want to look into that as well.
    Paul lived closer to the time of Jesus' life than either of them.

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    MichRedWingFan7

  • i googled just to make sure after my earlier mistakes bow

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    shoeless7777

  • shoeless7777 said...

    i googled just to make sure after my earlier mistakes bow

    I am not trying to go after you at all. You are a great poster. You say what is on your mind and do a great job of never insulting any poster ... I admit to losing my composure at times but trying to be civil when I am not too drunk.

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    MichRedWingFan7

  • didnt think you were going after me but i incorrectly stated something that you correctly pointed out which was very pertinent to the conversation ; just glad we can have these kinds of civil conversations when we feel differently about the issues +

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    shoeless7777

  • shoeless7777 said...

    didnt think you were going after me but i incorrectly stated something that you correctly pointed out which was very pertinent to the conversation ; just glad we can have these kinds of civil conversations when we feel differently about the issues +

    +1 to you as well

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    MichRedWingFan7

  • Rocket_Play said...

    Respectfully, yes. People believe him and have as much faith in his teaching as Jesus, and if you ask them about his history and compare it to his actual history, it's very different. If Scientology took over for say, the next 2000 years, which version of him do you think would survive?

    OK. No historical figure has had as much influence iver the world as Jesus, and not even close, His inspiration over the last couple of thousand years is beyond the pale. Jesus denied Himself and brought unprecedented wisdom. L Ron Hubbard, on the other hand (from Wiki) "Hubbard befriended Parsons and soon became sexually involved with Parsons's 21-year-old girlfriend, Sara "Betty" Northrup.[114] Despite this Parsons was very impressed with Hubbard and reported to Crowley:
    [Hubbard] is a gentleman; he has red hair, green eyes, is honest and intelligent, and we have become great friends. He moved in with me about two months ago, and although Betty and I are still friendly, she has transferred her sexual affection to Ron. Although he has no formal training in Magick, he has an extraordinary amount of experience and understanding in the field. From some of his experiences I deduced that he is in direct touch with some higher intelligence, possibly his Guardian Angel. He describes his Angel as a beautiful winged woman with red hair whom he calls the Empress and who has guided him through his life and saved him many times. He is the most Thelemic person I have ever met and is in complete accord with our own principles.[115]

    Parsons and Hubbard collaborated on the "Babalon Working", a sex magic ritual intended to summon an incarnation of Babalon, the Mother of Abominations. It was undertaken over several nights in February and March 1946 in order to summon an "elemental" who would participate in further sex magic.[116] As Richard Metzger describes it,

    Parsons used his "magical wand" to whip up a vortex of energy so the elemental would be summoned. Translated into plain English, Parsons jerked off in the name of spiritual advancement whilst Hubbard (referred to as "The Scribe" in the diary of the event) scanned the astral plane for signs and visions.[117]

    Suffice it to say Hubbard doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentance as Jesus. Jesus has lasted 2,000 years and has influenced the world exponentially. Hubbard, on the othewr hand, won't last much longer, and for obvious reasons. C'Mon man.

    This post was edited by goodnews on 5/11/2012 at 11:14 PM

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    South Carolina Gamecocks. The 2010 National College Baseball Champs.

    goodnews

  • Rocket_Play said...

    Novice historian. I take it this is your full time job? Respectfully, I didn't say he didnt exist. I said his deeds and miracles didn't happen as described in the bible. That was made up after the fact to make the religion credible.

    I'd love to see your proof. I have a wealth of evidence from witnesses that say his miracles were real. What do you have? You'll have to do better with me.

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    South Carolina Gamecocks. The 2010 National College Baseball Champs.

    goodnews

  • goodnews said...

    I'd love to see your proof. I have a wealth of evidence from witnesses that say his miracles were real. What do you have? You'll have to do better with me.

    you have witnesses ... go on?

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    MichRedWingFan7

  • AlwaysMore said...

    Okay, what do you mean by manuscript evidence? There are no Roman reports on him. He is never mentioned in any official government documents that have survived. The only writings about Jesus and his life, that I know of, are in the four gospels. Is there something I am missing?

    None of the things I listed about Washington are in evidence for Jesus. Are you talking about The Dead Sea Scrolls? There is not a lot about Christianity in them, despite the popular culture myths about them. What is this evidence you speak of?

    No Roman reports? Interesting. They executed Him. Why would there be any reports of Him beyond His crucifixion? Of course what you're leaving out is the fact that the Roman Empire bowed to Him within the next 300 years. By the time of Constatine the Roman Empire had become heavily influenced by the Church. In the next 100 years it had become thoroughly Christian. And all of this w/o the use of a sword, money, power, or any significant political influence. Rome had conqured the world with power. Jesus conquered rome with the message of truth. That's the epitome of legitimacy. Jesus message kept on growing in a culture that hated it and had the power to persecute it. Scientology has waned in a free culture. I just don't see it having world influence over the next 2,000 years. Could Hubbard and Jesus be any different?

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    South Carolina Gamecocks. The 2010 National College Baseball Champs.

    goodnews

  • Mich&RedWingFan said...

    So, of the writers of the Bible, who actually met and spoke with Jesus?

    Mostl of them did. John was the younger brother of James and both were part of the 12. He wrote John's gospel, 1-3 John ,and Revelation. Matthew was Levi the tax collector who Jesus called. Mark was almost certainly John Mark who was a follower of Jesus and later Peter (so Mark was essentially Peter's gospel). Peter wrote 2 more episttes. Paul knew the resurrected Jesus. James and Jude were Jesus' biological brothers. Luke may or may not have known the historical Jesus. Was evidence do you have to the contrary?

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    South Carolina Gamecocks. The 2010 National College Baseball Champs.

    goodnews

  • goodnews said...

    Mostl of them did. John was the younger brother of James and both were part of the 12. He wrote John's gospel, 1-3 John ,and Revelation. Matthew was Levi the tax collector who Jesus called. Mark was almost certainly John Mark who was a follower of Jesus and later Peter (so Mark was essentially Peter's gospel). Peter wrote 2 more episttes. Paul knew the resurrected Jesus. James and Jude were Jesus' biological brothers. Luke may or may not have known the historical Jesus. Was evidence do you have to the contrary?

    This is not correct.

    What versus are Peter's?
    I can basically disprove all you other comments.
    It is said Paul/Saul met Jesus after he was resurrected but that was also after ALL of his teachings.

    This post was edited by MichRedWingFan7 on 5/11/2012 at 11:57 PM

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    MichRedWingFan7

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