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Staff question - How to rank potential

  • devidee said...

    That's why QB's are being split between pro-style and dual threat.

    Alright let me use another example... Pat White. In WVU system he was an all time great for them. In Bama's system would he even start? I would doubt it. If he did he wouldn't have put up close to the numbers he did. As an analyst you would have to judge on what system he is going into in your idea of ranking players. So they would have to probably rank him as a 5 star if he signed with WVU but would have to rank him as a 3 star if he signed with Bama.

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    kitemac

  • Why would you ask a question about how they rate players and then say it's wrong and try to change their minds?

    Your responses make it seem like you started a thread just to argue with the staff about how you perceive their decisions to be wrong.

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    mpcoan

  • devidee said...

    Again, you are using the system QB as an example.

    If college fit doesn't matter at all why even break the QB position into pro-style and dual threat? Shouldn't the evaulation simply be whether this QB will someday play in the NFL?

    let's look at RBs then:

    Ron Dayne, Wisconsin (1996-99) 6,397 career rushing yards
    Ricky Williams, Texas (1995-98) 6,279
    Tony Dorsett, Pittsburgh (1973-76) 6,082
    DeAngelo Williams, Memphis (2002-05) 6,026
    Charles White, USC (1976-79) 5,598
    Travis Prentice, Miami (Ohio) (1996-99) 5,596
    Cedric Benson, Texas (2001-04) 5,540
    Ladainian Tomlinson, TCU (1997-00) 5,263
    Herschel Walker, Georgia (1980-82) 5,259
    Archie Griffin, Ohio State (1972-75) 5,177

    All of those guys should've been ranked high and were drafted high with one exception: Travis Prentice. Do you think Prentice should've been a 5-star coming out of high school? Do you think he would've rushed for 5,000+ yards at Ohio State? How should he have been ranked in retrospect knowing what we know.

    Barton Simmons | 247Sports | National Recruiting Analyst | Twitter: @bartonsimmons

    Barton S ●

  • *B-Money* said...

    Honestly I have no idea what his ranking was but maybe the recruiting sites saw him as a dynamic slot receiver/return guy. Dude is fast as hell.

    Yeah, but my right pinky weighs more than him now, and that's after 4 years in a college program. He was rated twice (HS and Hargrave) and was definitely a 4* once, might have been a 5* the other time.

    He will get drafted 6th or 7th round or go undrafted, but I contend that his ranking was correct.

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    Huddles are for rookies.

    mizAU ●

  • mizAU said...

    No, he should be rated for how good of a football player he is, period. If he goes to Alabama, either Saban finds a way to utilize him or he just made a bad decision for himself.

    These kids get to choose where they go to school. Corey Grant was a stud coming out of high school, ranked 4*. He went to Alabama, but that didn't change the fact that he was a 4* RB. Even if he never would've transferred to AU, that doesn't mean he wasn't a good football player coming out of HS just because he made a bad decision for himself.

    You are helping out Barton's explanation. NFL would ranks of how good a football player he is period. They don't put in to account what stats he puts in college. That's why NFL thought Poe was what he was. He didn't produce at Memphis but may have dominated under Rocker.

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    kitemac

  • I gotta step away and actually do a little work. I think it's a good argument and a good debate. I really like our philosophy and think it is the best way to look at it though.

    Barton Simmons | 247Sports | National Recruiting Analyst | Twitter: @bartonsimmons

    Barton S ●

  • mizAU said...

    Yeah, but my right pinky weighs more than him now, and that's after 4 years in a college program. He was rated twice (HS and Hargrave) and was definitely a 4* once, might have been a 5* the other time.

    He will get drafted 6th or 7th round or go undrafted, but I contend that his ranking was correct.

    If he gets drafted outside of the first round, in 247Sports and Rivals system, a 4 star was justifiable. If he gets drafted first round he would be a 5 star. 3 stars wouldn't get drafted but obviously could be great college players.

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    kitemac

  • kitemac said...

    You are helping out Barton's explanation. NFL would ranks of how good a football player he is period. They don't put in to account what stats he puts in college. That's why NFL thought Poe was what he was. He didn't produce at Memphis but may have dominated under Rocker.

    Yeah but OMac probably has at least 20 RBs ahead of him in NFL Draft rankings this year.

    Like I said in my other post, his rating was correct because he ended up being a really good college player, regardless of what pro scouts think.

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    Huddles are for rookies.

    mizAU ●

  • Barton S said...

    I gotta step away and actually do a little work. I think it's a good argument and a good debate. I really like our philosophy and think it is the best way to look at it though.

    Good chat, and while my views differ, I'm obviously a paying customer for a reason, and it's because I think this place is the best overall site.

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    Huddles are for rookies.

    mizAU ●

  • mizAU said...

    Yeah but OMac probably has at least 20 RBs ahead of him in NFL Draft rankings this year.

    Like I said in my other post, his rating was correct because he ended up being a really good college player, regardless of what pro scouts think.

    If he committed to a different school in a strictly pro style offense he wouldn't have put up nearly those numbers. In your system he would be probably a high 4 star kid. On a team like Bama he wouldn't put up nearly those numbers and probably would be a 2 or low 3 star kid.

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    kitemac

  • Barton S said...

    let's look at RBs then:

    Ron Dayne, Wisconsin (1996-99) 6,397 career rushing yards Ricky Williams, Texas (1995-98) 6,279 Tony Dorsett, Pittsburgh (1973-76) 6,082 DeAngelo Williams, Memphis (2002-05) 6,026 Charles White, USC (1976-79) 5,598 Travis Prentice, Miami (Ohio) (1996-99) 5,596 Cedric Benson, Texas (2001-04) 5,540 Ladainian Tomlinson, TCU (1997-00) 5,263 Herschel Walker, Georgia (1980-82) 5,259 Archie Griffin, Ohio State (1972-75) 5,177

    All of those guys should've been ranked high and were drafted high with one exception: Travis Prentice. Do you think Prentice should've been a 5-star coming out of high school? Do you think he would've rushed for 5,000+ yards at Ohio State? How should he have been ranked in retrospect knowing what we know.

    I'm not sure I understand your point. Prentice was drafted in the third round.

    It's completely different than your QB list which is strictly based on the system.

    In retrospect he should have been high 4 / 5 star coming out of high school.

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    devidee ●

  • devidee said...

    I'm not sure I understand your point. Prentice was drafted in the third round.

    It's completely different than your QB list which is strictly based on the system.

    In retrospect he should have been high 4 / 5 star coming out of high school.

    5 star would be a 1st round guy btw.

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    kitemac

  • kitemac said...

    If he committed to a different school in a strictly pro style offense he wouldn't have put up nearly those numbers. In your system he would be probably a high 4 star kid. On a team like Bama he wouldn't put up nearly those numbers and probably would be a 2 or low 3 star kid.

    We're talking about different things here. You want to rank his production while I want to rank his ability to produce.

    If he chooses to go to a school that won't utilize him, it doesn't make him any lesser of a football player. Then, the burden is on the coaches to utilize him properly, but he is still the same player worthy of the same ranking.

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    Huddles are for rookies.

    mizAU ●

  • kitemac said...

    5 star would be a 1st round guy btw.

    Yeah, I know.

    Prentice was the first pick in the 3rd round. Was he rated a high 4 star coming out of high school?

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    devidee ●

  • mizAU said...

    We're talking about different things here. You want to rank his production while I want to rank his ability to produce.

    If he chooses to go to a school that won't utilize him, it doesn't make him any lesser of a football player. Then, the burden is on the coaches to utilize him properly, but he is still the same player worthy of the same ranking.

    That's pretty much how the rankings are being done here. NFL is going to draft you by your ability to produce not as much as your production in college.

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    kitemac

  • devidee said...

    Yeah, I know.

    Prentice was the first pick in the 3rd round. Was he rated a high 4 star coming out of high school?

    I would think that would be about a middle tier 4 star guy. 5 star is 1st round. 4 star is rounds 2 through 7. 3 star is undrafted. Since here the lowest 4 star is 90 and the highest is 97. He would be about a 94/95

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    kitemac

  • kitemac said...

    That's pretty much how the rankings are being done here. NFL is going to draft you by your ability to produce not as much as your production in college.

    ^^^^^This post should end the argument.

    BMoney41747 ●

  • kitemac said...

    That's pretty much how the rankings are being done here. NFL is going to draft you by your ability to produce not as much as your production in college.

    Yeah, but ability to produce in college is different than ability to produce in the NFL. I care about college.

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    Huddles are for rookies.

    mizAU ●

  • mizAU said...

    Yeah, but ability to produce in college is different than ability to produce in the NFL. I care about college.

    How is it that different?

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    kitemac

  • Because a player like Pat White or OMac or Jeff Demps can impact a college game in much more ways than they can an NFL game.

    You know that.

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    Huddles are for rookies.

    mizAU ●

  • mizAU said...

    Yeah, but ability to produce in college is different than ability to produce in the NFL. I care about college.

    Another good point.

    Big A

  • mizAU said...

    Because a player like Pat White or OMac or Jeff Demps can impact a college game in much more ways than they can an NFL game.

    You know that.

    So you're saying a player's star rating should be changed based on why type of offense/defense the team they've committed to runs? That's what you're making it sound like.

    BMoney41747 ●

  • devidee said...

    I'm not sure I understand your point. Prentice was drafted in the third round.

    It's completely different than your QB list which is strictly based on the system.

    In retrospect he should have been high 4 / 5 star coming out of high school.

    I posted without checking where Prentice was drafted. I thought he was drafted lower than that.

    My point was what do you do with a player (like the WR from Houston this year) that puts up silly numbers in college at a smaller program but then goes undrafted. To me, that is the NFL saying: "yeah, ole boy killed it in college but he's not good enough for us"

    He wasn't good enough for them but he just set records at houston. I don't know where the kid is going to sign, i'm just trying to determine how good he is.

    Barton Simmons | 247Sports | National Recruiting Analyst | Twitter: @bartonsimmons

    Barton S ●

  • mizAU said...

    Because a player like Pat White or OMac or Jeff Demps can impact a college game in much more ways than they can an NFL game.

    You know that.

    in certain systems they have a lot less impacts on a team. All those guys were in a spread system. Where would you have ranked them if you know what you do now?

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    kitemac

  • mizAU said...

    Yeah, but ability to produce in college is different than ability to produce in the NFL. I care about college.

    this is exactly why 3-stars can be successful in college and why fan bases shouldn't get disappointed to get a 3-star talent.

    Barton Simmons | 247Sports | National Recruiting Analyst | Twitter: @bartonsimmons

    Barton S ●

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