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The Official Michigan, MSU Thread (CLOSED)

  • Jandy said...

    You display a lot of faith, which makes sense because you're a fan. Pardon me if I still wonder.

    You have 2/3 of an ineffective RB group returning.

    Roundtree might be the only senior, but him and Gardner are arguably your 2 best WR's. You say you like others; well who?

    You say you have experienced DL who you expect to step in, but I wonder why they haven't already. Who are you talking about?

    I believe your LB's and CB's will be fine, but Safety is another question IMO. Don't underestimate the leadership that is required from the S position. Trenton Robinson was a huge loss for us despite the fact that very talented players have stepped up to replace him.

    Wide Receivers could be better but I'm not really concerned about them being a bad personnel group

    - Roundtree isn't bad, but also keep in mind he pretty much doubled his season production on Saturday.

    - Gardner is a heck of a WR, but it's not like he's been a pillar of the team at WR the past two years and there's someone waiting in the wings to actually throw it to him. Hopefully one of the 6'3" WR recruits (all of them are 6'2 or 6'3 haha) from last year or two can be the big, fast, jumpy guy on the outside.

    - As other posters stated, Gallon is probably our number one receiver. We know what we're getting with Gallon and he's back, so hopefully Gardner will have a nice safety blanket.

    - Dileo - I don't know, he gets open and catches anything within arm's length. He's not going to ever be Braylon Edwards but he catches the ball when thrown to him.

    We'll see. Landing Treadwell would help me feel a lot better about playmakers at WR.

    Plus, keep in mind that Borges doesn't need his outside guy to win 1-on-1 deep every playcall. We're actually going to play a West coast offense next year, so dink and dunk short throws will happen a lot more. It's easier to have 6'2 or 6'3 guys for those routes, but it's not like Gallon and Dileo can't run them successfully.

    hardware_sushi

  • hardware_sushi said...

    I'm holding out hope for Lewan to stay until he says he's going. Yes - he's probably gone.

    I just keep telling myself Jake Long stuck around for his senior year even though he won Big Ten Lineman of the Year ahead of Joe Thomas, who eventually went 3rd in the draft that year.

    Sooooo....yeah, stick around Lewan.

    Blows my mind why anyone would stay when you are costing your selves a ton of money by staying in collgege.

    Did Ball hurt his NFL stock or improve it by coming back? Definitely hurt it.

    Go get your pay check and if the degree is important come back when you retire from the NFL.

    signature image

    steveschneider

  • Jandy said...

    You display a lot of faith, which makes sense because you're a fan. Pardon me if I still wonder.

    You have 2/3 of an ineffective RB group returning.

    Roundtree might be the only senior, but him and Gardner are arguably your 2 best WR's. You say you like others; well who?

    You say you have experienced DL who you expect to step in, but I wonder why they haven't already. Who are you talking about?

    I believe your LB's and CB's will be fine, but Safety is another question IMO. Don't underestimate the leadership that is required from the S position. Trenton Robinson was a huge loss for us despite the fact that very talented players have stepped up to replace him.

    The majority of the running back struggles are a result of an inept interior offensive line. It's hard to get any kind of rhythm when the running back is being hit before he even gets to the line of scrimmage. The problem is that it probably won't get any better next year either. We'll have redshirt freshmen all over the two-deep with the possibility multiple starters in the event there are any injuries. We're exceptionally deep at the running back position but the offensive line will be a huge cause for concern at least until 2014.

    Roundtree, up until the last few games, had been largely ineffective as a down field threat. In the last two games Roundtree doubled his reception yards on the season. The combination of Gallon/Dileo in the slot, with Funchess at tight end, should give us an extremely dangerous passing attack at intermediate distances. Where we're going to be in trouble is our lack of a deep threat. There's nobody to take the top off the defense. I think here is where we'll probably see one of the redshirt freshman attempt to make an impact.

    I'll do the defensive line in a little bit.

    I think Safety is going to be a cause for concern. I think people underestimate how important a leader like Kovacs is to our defense. The nice thing is that we should have two seniors starting at Safety next unless Jarrod Wilson outplays Marvin Robinson.

    jimtaco

  • Never Lose Hoke said...

    Reconfiguring the playoffs I have come across an interesting problem and solution. It seems that there is a 3-way tie for 3rd place, making it tough to cut out Braintrust (the 5th place team). I see two plausible solutions:

    1) I could leave Braintrust out anyway and proceed with a 4 team playoff.

    2) I could use a multi-matchup per week feature and give seeds 2 and 4 a game, give seeds 3 and 5 a game, and give seed 1 a game versus the winner of seeds 3 vs 5.

    What say you SteelBlue, Braintrust, copemoney, Jandy, steveschneider, CMXI, and SimplyComplex?

    How do the playoffs work can we pick up more players from the losing teams now or do we all just keep the players we have?

    signature image

    steveschneider

  • We will be a potential top 5 team next year. The only issues are needing a big WR or two on the outside and a young OL. Darboh and Chesson will fill the WR role nicely. They have the size, speed and talent and will be in their second years in the program. And we have plenty of very good OL talent, it's just young. We might struggle on the OL a little early, but our OOC schedule is manageable and by midseason the OL should be as good or better than this year's. Other than Lewan, we have no one special on the OL right now. And Lewan might even come back.

    This post was edited by MrWoodson on 11/13/2012 at 9:50 AM

    MrWoodson

  • mriderblue12 said...

    How hasn't our DL stepped up already? Have you been watching our defense this year? It's been pretty solid, especially on 3rd and short or 4th and short, which means the DL is doing its job. Washington, Heitzman, the WDE rotation will give us plenty of experience. Plus add another year for Pipkins plus a lot of the DL we have brought in the last two classes, we should be fine.

    Kovacs will be a huge loss, but I think we will be fine in the secondary as our CB's will be legit.

    Okay, relax. I am asking who will step up next year, I just worded it poorly.

    signature image

    laconophilia is everywhere... http://www.msu-umbig10.com/

    Jandy

  • MrWoodson said...

    We will be a potential top 5 team next year. The only issues are needing a big WR or two on the outside and a young OL. Darboh and Chesson will fill the WR role nicely. They have the size, speed and talent and will be in their second years in the program. And we have plenty of very good OL talent, it's just young. We might struggle on the OL a little early, but our OOC schedule is manageable and by midseason the OL should be as good or better than this year's. Other than Lewan, we have no one special on the OL right now. And Lewan might even come back.

    I don't see that with this offense next year. If Lewan doesn't stay, we're a very good defense with a not so good offense. That is going to be a VERY young OLine and WR Corps. I don't think this team starts showing it's potential till the 2014-15 season.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Hoffelcopter

  • Jandy said...

    You display a lot of faith, which makes sense because you're a fan. Pardon me if I still wonder.

    You have 2/3 of an ineffective RB group returning.

    Roundtree might be the only senior, but him and Gardner are arguably your 2 best WR's. You say you like others; well who?

    You say you have experienced DL who you expect to step in, but I wonder why they haven't already. Who are you talking about?

    I believe your LB's and CB's will be fine, but Safety is another question IMO. Don't underestimate the leadership that is required from the S position. Trenton Robinson was a huge loss for us despite the fact that very talented players have stepped up to replace him.

    I expect you wonder, which makes sense because you're not a fan. Pardon me if I still have faith.

    Toussaint is averaging only 3.8 ypc, but has been playing better the last 2 weeks with Gardner running Borges offense. Rawls is at 5 ypc. I like what I have seen of Norfleet and Hayes in their limited time, they didn't look out matched.

    Like who catching the ball? With Gardner out of the equation, Michigan returns 3 of the top 4 pass catchers from this season, including their top receiver Gallon.

    Dline is fine, evidence of this year alone. Actually says quite abit about your opinion on this that you wonder why they haven't stepped in already. DT starters/rotation guys returning, Washington, Black, Pipkins. Others who could enter the rotation next year, Ash, Wilkins, Godin and Henry.

    WDE already has a 3 man rotation of Clark, Beyer, and Ojemudia. I think either Clark or Beyer may make a move to SDE this year or next. There is alos highly touted Charlton coming in.

    At SDE Heitzmen returns. As stated one of Beyer or Clark could join him as will Storbel and Wormley.

    Kovacs loss will be felt. I am confident in the guys I mentioned.

    xxmgobluexx ●

  • Hoffelcopter said...

    I don't see that with this offense next year. If Lewan doesn't stay, we're a very good defense with a not so good offense. That is going to be a VERY young OLine and WR Corps. I don't think this team starts showing it's potential till the 2014-15 season.

    I agree we will be better in 2014 and 2015. Those are the years I have penciled us in for back-to-back national championships.

    goblue

    This post was edited by MrWoodson on 11/13/2012 at 10:47 AM

    MrWoodson

  • jimtaco said...

    The majority of the running back struggles are a result of an inept interior offensive line. It's hard to get any kind of rhythm when the running back is being hit before he even gets to the line of scrimmage. The problem is that it probably won't get any better next year either. We'll have redshirt freshmen all over the two-deep with the possibility multiple starters in the event there are any injuries. We're exceptionally deep at the running back position but the offensive line will be a huge cause for concern at least until 2014.

    Roundtree, up until the last few games, had been largely ineffective as a down field threat. In the last two games Roundtree doubled his reception yards on the season. The combination of Gallon/Dileo in the slot, with Funchess at tight end, should give us an extremely dangerous passing attack at intermediate distances. Where we're going to be in trouble is our lack of a deep threat. There's nobody to take the top off the defense. I think here is where we'll probably see one of the redshirt freshman attempt to make an impact.

    I'll do the defensive line in a little bit.

    I think Safety is going to be a cause for concern. I think people underestimate how important a leader like Kovacs is to our defense. The nice thing is that we should have two seniors starting at Safety next unless Jarrod Wilson outplays Marvin Robinson.

    I don't disagree with your RB sentiment, which is part of why I wonder about the position next year. If it is the OL's fault, then fine, but as you suggest, it isn't improving next year. Gardner is simply not as explosive of a runner as Robinson. He definitely can create some things, but he will not have the ground production that Robinson has had. Therefore, it will need to come from other sources, and that causes me to wonder. If the OL struggles next year, as many of you suggest it has this year, then UM's rushing attack will most definitely take a hit.

    I stand corrected on Roundtree, with Gallon being your best returning WR that should help. I do think that losing 2 of your top 3-4 WR's will hurt (Roundtree/Gardner) and isn't something to be taken lightly.

    I agree with you that Safety could be an issue. Kovacs is a glue guy, replacing a guy like that with a 'pure talent' player requires a LOT of pure talent. Possible, but not likely in my opinion.

    signature image

    laconophilia is everywhere... http://www.msu-umbig10.com/

    Jandy

  • MrWoodson said...

    I agree we will be better in 2014 and 2015. Those are the years I have penciled us in for back-to-back national championships.

    goblue

    Haha, atta boy.

    signature image

    laconophilia is everywhere... http://www.msu-umbig10.com/

    Jandy

  • Jandy said...

    Okay, relax. I am asking who will step up next year, I just worded it poorly.

    On the DLine? I believe Jibreel Black slides back to SDE, who has been showing some flashes during his time at DT. QWash will stay at NT with Pipkins at DT. Brennen Beyer will most likely stay at WDE. Ojemudia has shown good things as a True Freshman. Keith Heitzman looks to be progressing decently.We also have Frank Clark, I think severely missed that summer practice. He hasn't progressed anywhere near I thought he would. Hoping a summer with out legal trouble will turn him around.

    Also will have RS FR. Chris Wormley, Matt Godin, Tom Strobel, and Willie Henry.

    As for MLB, easy, Joe Bolden will replace Demens there. Which will be a small dropoff, but as the year progress I can see him out performing what Demens did this year. As he almost took that job in the beginning of the season. Replacing Kovacs, will hurt some in the run game as Jarrod Wilson will most likely be taking his spot, but Kovacs wasn't so good in pass coverage anyway. Great, great leader though. That will be missed.

    Our CBs will by RS. Junior Raymon Taylor, and RS Soph. Blake Countess. I'm very happy with that group.

    This defense, will be pretty damn good next year.

    Offense, that's a whole other story.

    Devin Gardner has shown flashes that he will be a pretty good QB for us next year, with an OLine as suspect as we have now, he is still maintaining drives and putting points on the board. Hopefully the Jack Miller, Chris Bryant, and Kyle Kalis can come right in and perform better than Barnum, Mealer, and Omameh has shown this year. Which I don't know if that will happen, two of them will be RS. So, and one RS. Fresh. If we lose Lewan to the draft, which is likely, it will be a very long year for the running game and Fitz Toussaint. Fitz and Rawls, will not be getting good stats unless this OLine can dramatically improve somehow in run blocking next year.

    Passing game should be better though, Devin Funchess should progress nicely, as well as AJ Williams with running routes and blocking schemes. We lose Roundtree, but I think Gallon is returning. I can see Darboh and Chesson jumping Jackons, and Robinson. Norfleet might even see some time at the slot. Just get him out in space, and who knows.

    I predict a 10-3 season, with the 10th win coming from a Bowl game. If the OLine issues get worse, make that 8-5 with a loss in the bowl game, if the OLine can improve and be what they were last year. The sky is the limit. But atleast in the beginning of the year, we will be relying heavily on the Defense. I'm confident there, we will have the best Defense in the B1G next year.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Hoffelcopter

  • jimtaco said...

    This seems like a pretty good analysis of where we should be next year. I think Lewan will have to leave after being graded out as a top-10 pick because it's far too much money to risk losing due to an injury.

    I think the offensive line will look something like this.

    LT: Schofield, Magnuson/Braden
    LG: Bryant, Bars
    C: Miller, Kugler
    RG: Kalis, Burzynski
    RT: Magunson/Braden, Gunderson

    It could be an absolute train wreck if Lewan doesn't return.

    Everything is in place for a solid run, except the oline. Lewan staying or going is huge. It changes the whole dynamic of the oline.

    xxmgobluexx ●

  • xxmgobluexx said...

    Everything is in place for a solid run, except the oline. Lewan staying or going is huge. It changes the whole dynamic of the oline.

    Yeah, it's night and day. You no longer have to change Schofield's position. You no longer have redshirt Freshmen starting at right tackle. You no longer have walk-ons in the two-deep. However, I'll be be absolutely shocked if he doesn't leave when the NFL comes calling.

    jimtaco

  • xxmgobluexx said...

    Only RB leaving is 3rd down back Smith. Hayes and Norfleet will step into that role. Toussaint and Rawls will return with highly toutes Smith also coming in. There is the outside shot of Michigan also picking up one of the top backs in the nation, Green.

    As for WR, Roundtree is the only senior, everyone else returns. Michigan also has a shot signing Treadwell, he could make an instant impact like Burbridge. Regardless, I like the WRs that are coming back.

    TE, Moore is the only senior, and he is buried on the depth chart.

    I noticed you mentioned both lines. Roh will be a loss, not so much with Campbell. Michigan has plenty of guys with experience that should step into place here, not a concern for me.

    LB, Demens is the only loss. I am thinking more and more that Morgan will move over to Mike and Ross will step into the WLB position. I am sure that Bolden will have plenty to say about that, as will the freshmen coming in. Michigan is all set for 2 more years with Ryan at SLB.

    Floyd is the only loss at CB, but he is also the CB that teams target the most. Michigan should be looking good with Taylor and Countess returning from his injury. Avery returns once again to man Nickel position.

    FS is set with Gordon the returning starter for the 3rd year in a row. He may move over to the position vacated by Kovacs if Wilson looks good at FS. There is also Robinson waiting for his chance at SS, and highly touted Thomas coming in.

    Overall, my only concerns now are at oline as stated.

    My question is will Borges be moving to more of a pro-style with DG? If you're going to go dual threat, it's good to have a big body back there; I prefer the Marquise Gray/Braxton Miller/Logan Thomas types to the Taylor Martinez/Denard Robinsons. DG definitely was the reason you beat Northwestern and Minny; I think you lose both games with Bellomy in there.

    Injuries are always a concern with dual threat guys, but if DG can play like Russell Wilson (take off as a 4th option), you guys could have a much better passing O next year.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

    SpartanRocky

  • SpartanRocky said...

    My question is will Borges be moving to more of a pro-style with DG? If you're going to go dual threat, it's good to have a big body back there; I prefer the Marquise Gray/Braxton Miller/Logan Thomas types to the Taylor Martinez/Denard Robinsons. DG definitely was the reason you beat Northwestern and Minny; I think you lose both games with Bellomy in there.

    Injuries are always a concern with dual threat guys, but if DG can play like Russell Wilson (take off as a 4th option), you guys could have a much better passing O next year.

    Yes, we will be moving almost entirely to Borges' offense next year. Hell, the last two games we've been incorporating a large amount of the pro-style offense.

    jimtaco

  • SpartanRocky said...

    My question is will Borges be moving to more of a pro-style with DG? If you're going to go dual threat, it's good to have a big body back there; I prefer the Marquise Gray/Braxton Miller/Logan Thomas types to the Taylor Martinez/Denard Robinsons. DG definitely was the reason you beat Northwestern and Minny; I think you lose both games with Bellomy in there.

    Injuries are always a concern with dual threat guys, but if DG can play like Russell Wilson (take off as a 4th option), you guys could have a much better passing O next year.

    MGoBlog has an interesting piece breaking down Borges' play calling with Devin the past two weeks and comparing it to his play calling with Denard before he was injured. The short answer is yes, we should see a significant leap forward in terms of running something much closer to Borges' West Coast/Gulf Coast offense next year. But you might want to read the piece (it's somewhat interesting).

    http://mgoblog.com/content/hokepoints-difference-devin-makes

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by MrWoodson on 11/13/2012 at 11:34 AM

    MrWoodson

  • xxmgobluexx said...

    Everything is in place for a solid run, except the oline. Lewan staying or going is huge. It changes the whole dynamic of the oline.

    I actually like MSU's schedule a lot next year. Outside of @ND, MSU should be looking good in the early going:

    WMU
    USF
    Youngstown State
    @ND
    BYE
    @Iowa
    Indiana
    Purdue
    @Illinois
    Michigan
    BYE
    @Nebraska
    @Northwestern
    Minnesota

    I can't believe how bad Iowa is this year (or that MSU lost to them), and they're replacing their QB. I'm digging the double bye; they come after the 2 biggest rivalry games. Having IU/Purdue/@IL may be a 3-week bye before playing UM.

    UM gets the double bye of IU (home), BYE before coming to EL. Big game; next one is Nebraska at home, then @Northwestern, @Iowa (shouldn't be a problem), tOSU.

    Next few games are huge for MSU. Gotta make a bowl and show some improvement at the QB position. Do that, and I think MSU will have a shot at the Legends title in '13.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

    SpartanRocky

  • MrWoodson said...

    MGoBlog has an interesting piece breaking down Borges' play calling with Devin the past two weeks and comparing it to his play calling with Denard before he was injured. The short answer is yes, we should see a significant leap forward in terms of running something much closer to Borges' West Coast/Gulf Coast offense next year. But you might want to read the piece (it's somewhat interesting).

    http://mgoblog.com/content/hokepoints-difference-devin-makes

    Definitely; I'll take a look at it over lunch.

    Any thoughts from the UM fans on Northwestern? There's no Northwestern 247 fanbase to talk to lol. I watched almost the entire game on Saturday and caught 50% of the replay on BTN on Sunday. They pretty much look like Nebraska, except putting in Siemien to throw from time to time, almost as a gadget. Seems like a very frustrating offense to defense; lots of gap responsibility and puts a ton of pressure on the DEs to keep contain.

    Not so worried about their WRs, but man, MSU could not figure out Nebraska at all 2 weeks ago.

    On the flip side, if VanHoose is out Maxwell could have his best day through the air.

    Thoughts on their run D? They don't appear to be great at getting through the LOS, but outside of Toussaint's run, I didn't see a ton of running lanes. Wonder if this is a group that you think Bell could wear down over the course of the game.

    This is definitely a game that you should tune in for the 4th Q alone. I won't feel comfortable unless MSU has a 17 point lead with 3 seconds to go with 1st and goal from the Northwestern 4 lol.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

    SpartanRocky

  • SpartanRocky said...

    Definitely; I'll take a look at it over lunch.

    Any thoughts from the UM fans on Northwestern? There's no Northwestern 247 fanbase to talk to lol. I watched almost the entire game on Saturday and caught 50% of the replay on BTN on Sunday. They pretty much look like Nebraska, except putting in Siemien to throw from time to time, almost as a gadget. Seems like a very frustrating offense to defense; lots of gap responsibility and puts a ton of pressure on the DEs to keep contain.

    Not so worried about their WRs, but man, MSU could not figure out Nebraska at all 2 weeks ago.

    On the flip side, if VanHoose is out Maxwell could have his best day through the air.

    Thoughts on their run D? They don't appear to be great at getting through the LOS, but outside of Toussaint's run, I didn't see a ton of running lanes. Wonder if this is a group that you think Bell could wear down over the course of the game.

    This is definitely a game that you should tune in for the 4th Q alone. I won't feel comfortable unless MSU has a 17 point lead with 3 seconds to go with 1st and goal from the Northwestern 4 lol.

    We had a hell of a time containing NW's rushing game on the edge. They were holding all day but I don't think we got a single holding penalty until the 4th QTR. And Siemien was throwing darts. You guys really need to be on your A game defensively. It's a dangerous team to defend against. If you can get your rushing game going and keep their offense off the field, that should help a lot. With Denard out, our rushing game was predictably poor. Most of our best rushing plays were scrambles by Gardner.

    MrWoodson

  • MrWoodson said...

    I agree we will be better in 2014 and 2015. Those are the years I have penciled us in for back-to-back national championships.

    goblue

    Maybe I'm too pessimistic but I don't think Michigan will compete for a NC until 2015 at the absolute earliest.

    hownowbrowncow

  • I'm curious State fans, do you think Narduzzi will get looks for a head coaching job? I know there was talk about heading to A&M as a coordinator but that obviously didn't happen. Is he now set at State?

    jimtaco

  • elmn12 said...

    Maybe I'm too pessimistic but I don't think Michigan will compete for a NC until 2015 at the absolute earliest.

    Hater.

    MrWoodson

  • jimtaco said...

    I'm curious State fans, do you think Narduzzi will get looks for a head coaching job? I know there was talk about heading to A&M as a coordinator but that obviously didn't happen. Is he now set at State?

    DWags is trying to pimp him out over on the Rumors board. I thought they liked him in EL. Why are they pushing so hard to get rid of him all of a sudden? shrug

    MrWoodson

  • MrWoodson said...

    Hater.

    It's mainly because I think we need more depth and more talent overall. Also, we need a few players who can be game changers on both sides of the ball. I think Dymonte Thomas is that kind of player, but we need a few more guys like Malik McDowell and Damon Webb who have the potential to be elite at their position once they've been on campus for a couple of years.

    hownowbrowncow

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