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The Official Michigan, MSU, and 1 Random Guy from Arky Thread

  • Peterklima said...

    Aren't those the same teams that MSU's defense has shut down this year? MAC level and bad B10 offenses? And they got beat by the only good offense they faced?

    So, are you saying Denard and the Michigan offense last year is like the MSU defense this year?

    Our D is improved...going off the eye ball test and numbers. Denard is still chucking up interceptions and his throwing isn't that impressive. I thought he had something removed from his arm to help him throw?

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    steveschneider

  • NigelUno said...

    Well...we're not talking about the MAC level and weak BigTen defenses that he picks apart and runs around on. He does make them pay.


    MSU is likely going to be the best defensive team we've played all year. And if they try to do everything in their power to keep Denard from running, he can easily make them pay too.

    If you're defense is coming out with the idea to force him to throw and keeping him from running then they are already vulnerable to Denard's play action. If the safeties jump on his little play action move (and many...many...many do.) you have a streaking TE or WR going right down the seam.

    Denard hits that guy a lot... and there are times he misses him (to my great frustration :) ) But my main point is, it's just not as easy as saying "We are going to force him to throw." Because when you do that, you do open yourself up to the pass, no matter what D you may have. Like I said, it's one thing to say it, another to do it. Just like I don't see MSU shutting down our running O, I don't see them making Denard a pass only QB either.

    Don't get me wrong here though, just like I said earlier, I think that MSU is going to be the best Defensive team we've played, and I think that we are going to struggle at times throughout the game moving the ball. I just feel you're either under estimating Denard's passing, or overrating your D.

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    You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

    theyellowdart

  • Peterklima said...

    No one is having nightmares about MSU's offense this year.

    Good. After Saturday your team will.

    OTPT

  • Peterklima said...

    I say one interception should be the over/under.

    So you think DR will only throw the ball 2-3 times all game then? That might be Borges' best option.

    MiamiSpartan

  • theyellowdart said...

    MSU is likely going to be the best defensive team we've played all year. And if they try to do everything in their power to keep Denard from running, he can easily make them pay too.

    If you're defense is coming out with the idea to force him to throw and keeping him from running then they are already vulnerable to Denard's play action. If the safeties jump on his little play action move (and many...many...many do.) you have a streaking TE or WR going right down the seam.

    Denard hits that guy a lot... and there are times he misses him (to my great frustration :) ) But my main point is, it's just not as easy as saying "We are going to force him to throw." Because when you do that, you do open yourself up to the pass, no matter what D you may have. Like I said, it's one thing to say it, another to do it. Just like I don't see MSU shutting down our running O, I don't see them making Denard a pass only QB either.

    Don't get me wrong here though, just like I said earlier, I think that MSU is going to be the best Defensive team we've played, and I think that we are going to struggle at times throughout the game moving the ball. I just feel you're either under estimating Denard's passing, or overrating your D.

    You're assuming it will take 10-11 guys to stop him on the run. I think we have to do it with the front 7. And not even really stop him running, just contain him. Don't try to force him to pass by over playing the run. Just stay disciplined, stay in the gaps, don't lose contain. Let him get 4-5 yards and take a beating on the end of it. Keep him in that range, and Borges will want him passing just to preserve him.

    MiamiSpartan

  • steveschneider said...

    Question for Maize and Blue, if you are UM's defensive coordinator what would be your keys to disrupting MSU's offense?

    Same question for SpartanRocky, if you are in Narduzzi's role what is your keys to stopping UM's O.

    Well for starters as most of my fellow Michigan guys have said we have to stop the run. However, we simply cannot be forced to sellout to stop the run our Cousins will kill us with play action. The biggest thing with stopping the run is not giving up big plays, especially for TDs. Try to contain the big plays to 15 to 20 yard runs at best and live to play another down. It only takes a couple good plays in a row to get a team into 3rd and long. We can give up 100 to 120 yards rushing and it not be a major difference in the game.

    In the passing game, I think we rotate a safety over the top of Cunningham but i wouldn't go all out trying to actually stop Cunningham. We just need to control him some so he doesn't have an absolutely huge game(like 150yds and 2+TDs). Cunningham is going to get his. He will more than likely have 7+ catches for like 100yds. We can live with that if we are able to stop the other guys in the passing game.

    I don't think you will see as much blitzing out of Michigan as most of the MSU fans think. Mattison will try playing this more straight up, stop the big play, and dial up some run and pass blitzes at the right opportunity. I think our best bet is to play a bend but don't break defense and stiffen up in the red zone. The Michigan coaches have to trust that the players will eventually make plays to stop State's offense, especially the defensive line guys. If Mattison gets impatient and really aggressive i fear that State could hit a couple big plays in the passing game. Now if our DL comes out and dominates the line of scrimmage then State's O is in big trouble.

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    WillyWolverine

  • steveschneider said...

    Our D is improved...going off the eye ball test and numbers. Denard is still chucking up interceptions and his throwing isn't that impressive. I thought he had something removed from his arm to help him throw?

    Since he had his procedure Denard is completing 71% of his passes for over 500 yards with 4tds and 3ints(which all came in the same half). So he has looked great for 6 quarters throwing the ball and had 2 quarters with questionable decisions.

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    WillyWolverine

  • Saintlex said...

    I think or #1 goal had to be to stop the run. We cant let you guys set the tempo. You're rushing offense hasn't been what you all were expecting thus far (what ANYONE i the B1G were expecting) but that doesn't mean that you guys cant just turn it on at any time. You definitely have the talent to do so, and I'm sure UM wouldn't mind you guys righting the ship .. AFTER Saturday's game. peace If we can stuff the run on first and 2nd downs, and force you guys into 3rd and longs (or obvious passing situations) it would life a hell of a lot easier for UM.

    And I'm not Rocky, but I would assume he'll say something along the lines of contain/spy on Denard and make him beat you with his arm. Something that State was successful with last year.

    Don't spy Denard. I hate the spy; there isn't a guy on our team that has better lateral speed than Denard's straight line speed (duh), so unless the DL is forcing Denard to hesitate, all the spy would do is look silly trying to run Denard down from behind. It also removes a defender from most plays (like, umm, passing plays) making it easier for Denard to complete passes down field.

    Contain, OTOH, is where you start.

    If I see the D-ends make a single inside move (unless it's 3rd and 25), I'll go crazy. Stay in your lanes and keep Denard between the tackles. The more bodies he has to go around, the slower he is. I really think the D-tackles are the key to forcing him to throw quickly. That'll be the key, getting Robinson to get rid of the ball before he's ready. Forget sacks; if we get 1, I'll be estatic, but the better results are poor, forced passes and minimal rushes after the pocket's collapsed. I'm glad we have athletic OLBs, as they're going to be tested.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

    SpartanRocky

  • SpartanRocky said...

    Don't spy Denard. I hate the spy; there isn't a guy on our team that has better lateral speed than Denard's straight line speed (duh), so unless the DL is forcing Denard to hesitate, all the spy would do is look silly trying to run Denard down from behind. It also removes a defender from most plays (like, umm, passing plays) making it easier for Denard to complete passes down field.

    Contain, OTOH, is where you start.

    If I see the D-ends make a single inside move (unless it's 3rd and 25), I'll go crazy. Stay in your lanes and keep Denard between the tackles. The more bodies he has to go around, the slower he is. I really think the D-tackles are the key to forcing him to throw quickly. That'll be the key, getting Robinson to get rid of the ball before he's ready. Forget sacks; if we get 1, I'll be estatic, but the better results are poor, forced passes and minimal rushes after the pocket's collapsed. I'm glad we have athletic OLBs, as they're going to be tested.

    You're spot on about forgetting about sacks and just applying pressure to force bad throws. Denard has only been sacked twice through 6 games.

    xxmgobluexx

  • SpartanRocky said...

    Don't spy Denard. I hate the spy; there isn't a guy on our team that has better lateral speed than Denard's straight line speed (duh)

    For the spy, NW did something weird putting Marks out there on defense. For comparison's sake, it would be like you taking out a LB and putting in Martin on defense and have his job be just watching and containing Denard.

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    Ducksworth

  • Ducksworth said...

    For the spy, NW did something weird putting Marks out there on defense. For comparison's sake, it would be like you taking out a LB and putting in Martin on defense and have his job be just watching and containing Denard.

    It was a relatively desperate move by a team that needed to pull out all the stops to try and contain Denard.

    Quite frankly, you'll be facing a much better front 7 than Northwestern, so I don't think the wacky adjustments are needed. I'm fine with Dennard getting 300 yards of O, if the rest of your squad only manages 46 or something like that.

    The old "you can't control him, you can only hope to contain him" line works. I fully believe that MSU, as a team, is too good for Denard to beat on his own. If your RBs get 100 yards on their own, though, then it's problematic.

    I know he went all around Notre Dame this year, but the 3-4 vs. the 4-3 actually weighs in favor of MSU. More lineman at the point of attack means the running lanes are a bit more clogged, which makes it harder for Denard to get going. I'm not saying we'll shut him down, but holding him to like 4 ypc and under 100 yards? I could see that.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

    SpartanRocky

  • SpartanRocky said...

    It was a relatively desperate move by a team that needed to pull out all the stops to try and contain Denard.

    Quite frankly, you'll be facing a much better front 7 than Northwestern, so I don't think the wacky adjustments are needed. I'm fine with Dennard getting 300 yards of O, if the rest of your squad only manages 46 or something like that.

    The old "you can't control him, you can only hope to contain him" line works. I fully believe that MSU, as a team, is too good for Denard to beat on his own. If your RBs get 100 yards on their own, though, then it's problematic.

    I know he went all around Notre Dame this year, but the 3-4 vs. the 4-3 actually weighs in favor of MSU. More lineman at the point of attack means the running lanes are a bit more clogged, which makes it harder for Denard to get going. I'm not saying we'll shut him down, but holding him to like 4 ypc and under 100 yards? I could see that.

    Oh I completely agree that your front 7 and defense is much better than Northwestern. Sorry, I wasn't saying that that was something you should do. Just an interesting thing to see.

    I would feel much better about this game if you didn't stop him so effectively last year. That scares me a lot and makes me think we could see a lot of the same this year: running game getting shut down, Denard panicking and throwing an INT. The only thing that makes me think that may not happen this year is Borges. He's been brilliant so far, and it'll be a wonderful schematic battle between Borges and Narduzzi (?). Should be fun to watch.

    We'll be watching the game exactly three days from now cheers Can't wait!

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    Ducksworth

  • theyellowdart said...

    MSU is likely going to be the best defensive team we've played all year. And if they try to do everything in their power to keep Denard from running, he can easily make them pay too.

    If you're defense is coming out with the idea to force him to throw and keeping him from running then they are already vulnerable to Denard's play action. If the safeties jump on his little play action move (and many...many...many do.) you have a streaking TE or WR going right down the seam.

    Same thing, verbatim, was said last year. He's gotten better as a passer, but we've gotten better on the DLine and the secondary. Have fun with that.

    Royal

  • Royal said...

    Same thing, verbatim, was said last year.

    But this isn't last year, no matter how many times you say it is.

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    Go Blue and Go Titans!

    CorchBlue

  • MiamiSpartan said...

    You're assuming it will take 10-11 guys to stop him on the run. I think we have to do it with the front 7. And not even really stop him running, just contain him. Don't try to force him to pass by over playing the run. Just stay disciplined, stay in the gaps, don't lose contain. Let him get 4-5 yards and take a beating on the end of it. Keep him in that range, and Borges will want him passing just to preserve him.


    I wasn't assuming it was going to take 10-11, but I certainly was assuming that it's going to take more than just your front 7.

    However, I was responding to the point of MSU's Defense "forcing" Denard to throw. Trying to keep him contained with your front 7 is certainly not what I would describe has forcing him to throw it. :) It's also much much easier to say things like "Stay disciplined, stay in the gaps, don't lose contain." than to actually execute them against a talent like Denard. Because one mistake and he can really make you pay.

    Not to mention, if Denard is getting 4-5 yards a pop you're not going to see Borges go away from him.

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    You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

    theyellowdart

  • Royal said...

    Same thing, verbatim, was said last year. He's gotten better as a passer, but we've gotten better on the DLine and the secondary. Have fun with that.


    I'm positive it wasn't Verbatim :)

    And last year was last year. if you're truly believe you know what's going to happen this game because of something that happened last game... well... have fun with that.

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    You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

    theyellowdart

  • Ducksworth said...

    Oh I completely agree that your front 7 and defense is much better than Northwestern. Sorry, I wasn't saying that that was something you should do. Just an interesting thing to see.

    I would feel much better about this game if you didn't stop him so effectively last year. That scares me a lot and makes me think we could see a lot of the same this year: running game getting shut down, Denard panicking and throwing an INT. The only thing that makes me think that may not happen this year is Borges. He's been brilliant so far, and it'll be a wonderful schematic battle between Borges and Narduzzi (?). Should be fun to watch.

    We'll be watching the game exactly three days from now Can't wait!

    Just want to point out a couple things from last years game.

    1) We moved the ball well in that game(377yds of offense). Denard had over 300yds. It was the redzone Ints that killed Michigan. 2 Ints in the endzone were the real difference makers in that game. Allowed MSU to get up to a big lead.

    2) State got up big in the 3rd quarter which basically made Michigan one dimensional. It took Denards legs out of the game in the 4th quarter for the most part. If that happens again Michigan loses.

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    WillyWolverine

  • theyellowdart said...

    I wasn't assuming it was going to take 10-11, but I certainly was assuming that it's going to take more than just your front 7.

    However, I was responding to the point of MSU's Defense "forcing" Denard to throw. Trying to keep him contained with your front 7 is certainly not what I would describe has forcing him to throw it. :) It's also much much easier to say things like "Stay disciplined, stay in the gaps, don't lose contain." than to actually execute them against a talent like Denard. Because one mistake and he can really make you pay.

    Not to mention, if Denard is getting 4-5 yards a pop you're not going to see Borges go away from him.

    I agree with you about Borges not going away from the run if we are getting 4-5 yards a pop. Borges has shown this year that he is more patient with sticking with the run. I think this goes for our RB's as well. Last week against NW we ran the ball 50 times and didn't hit 200 yards rushing. They will stick with the run even if its just marginally successful.

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    WillyWolverine

  • theyellowdart said...

    I'm positive it wasn't Verbatim :)

    And last year was last year. if you're truly believe you know what's going to happen this game because of something that happened last game... well... have fun with that.

    Look at it this way: your primary offensive weapon was shut down pretty well last year. What changes have been made so that his growth as a player exceeds the growth of the MSU defense? Our defense has improved since last year and your offense is not as explosive as it was under RichRod, whether UM fans want to admit it or not.

    Royal

  • Royal said...

    Look at it this way: your primary offensive weapon was shut down pretty well last year. What changes have been made so that his growth as a player exceeds the growth of the MSU defense? Our defense has improved since last year and your offense is not as explosive as it was under RichRod, whether UM fans want to admit it or not.

    What changed for us? How about our Offensive Co-ordinator/philosophy for one? We have a competent one now. It wont be Denard left, Denard right, Denard up the middle ... with a bubble screen here and a bubble screen there. We'll be more balanced than last year.

    This post was edited by Saintlex on 10/12/2011 at 1:00 PM

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    Saintlex

  • Royal said...

    Look at it this way: your primary offensive weapon was shut down pretty well last year. What changes have been made so that his growth as a player exceeds the growth of the MSU defense? Our defense has improved since last year and your offense is not as explosive as it was under RichRod, whether UM fans want to admit it or not.

    Not sure where you come up with that since we are averaging more points per game than we did last year. And comparing the 2 years after 6 games we have scored 3 more points this year than last year.

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    WillyWolverine

  • steveschneider said...

    Our D is improved...going off the eye ball test and numbers. Denard is still chucking up interceptions and his throwing isn't that impressive. I thought he had something removed from his arm to help him throw?

    Denard is still "tearing up teams" that is my point. You blitz and he will find running lanes.

    This poster said it was only because of the competition faced. I pointed out that we could say the same thing aout the Spartan defense. We could also say the same thing about the Spartan run game.

    Peterklima

  • Denard will throw a pick or more this game, its inevitable. I'm guessing 2, but it could very well be 3 or 1. With that said, will also probably beat us with his arm a few times. I have been very impressed with michigan's hemmingway as a deep threat. The key for us to win this game though is to make sure he doesn't destroy us with his legs. If we keep him to a quiet 100 yards with around 4 ypc then we have done an adequate job to win the game. Now if he gets 150 yards rushing and 1 touchdown run of over 30 yards then we may be in a little trouble.

    This post was edited by bb011 on 10/12/2011 at 1:21 PM

    bb011

  • OTPT said...

    Good. After Saturday your team will.

    In the future I think things will happen!!! HALOL

    Peterklima

  • Royal said...

    Look at it this way: your primary offensive weapon was shut down pretty well last year. What changes have been made so that his growth as a player exceeds the growth of the MSU defense? Our defense has improved since last year and your offense is not as explosive as it was under RichRod, whether UM fans want to admit it or not.

    Denard shut himself down more than MSU did last year. He moved the ball really well against the MSU defense last year. He just made bad decisions.

    Denard has grown and gained more experience. He was a first year starter last year.

    The MSU defense has not become a year wiser. They have a bunch of young guys that are first year starters this year. They have done well against, without question, some of the worst offenses in college football so far this year. They failed their one "real" test against Notre Dame.

    I'll take that rematch any day.

    This post was edited by Peterklima on 10/12/2011 at 1:28 PM

    Peterklima