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BamaLivesFootba said...
This is a terrible measurement, but I took the US GDP and got out a nominal amount for a year based on average (better than now though, keep that in mind) growth rate of 3% and you get about $450B. Now I think about 75% of this is based on consumption. So that gives you a rough number of $337.5B. Even if you tax that at 100%, you get about 11.6% of the requested revenue of the FY 2013 US Federal Budget....
So....
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AbsenteeTrojan said...
Again, a "flat federal sales tax" that will replace the current income tax would be regressive. A regressive tax system means that, as the income levels rises, the effective tax rates decrease.
Higher income individuals actually spend less of their income (because of investing, savings, etc) than lower income individuals do. Therefore, lower income individuals would be subjected to the "flat federal sales tax" more often and that would be detrimental to being "fair to both sides."
What you're proposing isn't actually all that ridiculous though. There are countries that have tried a modified form of it... called the Value Added Tax. The only difference is that the end consumer isn't the only one who pays taxes. The seller also has to pay tax on the "value added" to the product before the next step in the sales cycle.
I'm pretty sure that the EU and some Scandinavian countries utilize the value added tax. There are some good reads on it out there if you're interested.
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Harry Callahan said...
I'm republican as they come, but a flat tax is a bad idea. We need higher taxes because the democrats spend money on useless crap. If we ran a more efficient country with a smaller government, while focusing primarily on social programs to help the needy, a flat tax may be beneficial. However, we don't... and we never will.
We spend ridiculous money to protect wealthy individuals that stand to benefit from a democrat filled gov't. We also spend a ridiculous amount of money to protect wealthy individuals that stand to benefit from a republican filled gov't. At the end of the day, the only solution is to make as much money as you can and keep it from the hands of the idiots running this country.
Make your money, save it, and keep it from the government. It's what the wealthy do.
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Gfortress5 said...
So SS (pre borrowing against it) worked to support retiree's, why would this value added system not work in the US? Especially if we terminated the IRS and moved toward a smaller government?
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Harry Callahan said...
I'm republican as they come, but a flat tax is a bad idea. We need higher taxes because the democrats spend money on useless crap. If we ran a more efficient country with a smaller government, while focusing primarily on social programs to help the needy, a flat tax may be beneficial. However, we don't... and we never will.
We spend ridiculous money to protect wealthy individuals that stand to benefit from a democrat filled gov't. We also spend a ridiculous amount of money to protect wealthy individuals that stand to benefit from a republican filled gov't. At the end of the day, the only solution is to make as much money as you can and keep it from the hands of the idiots running this country.
Make your money, save it, and keep it from the government. It's what the wealthy do.
Non-defense Discretionary spending isn't a large portion of our spending in total?
It will take reform of the social spending and defense spending to bring "a smaller, more efficient government".
----------------------------------------
To the rest of your post: I agree with your assertion, but solution would be philosophically different. I see the method of government as a product of itself. If you change the product, you change the way it conducts itself. That's not an easy thing to do though. Not easy at all.
"A political call, the fall guy accord...We can't afford to be neutral on a moving train..."
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Gfortress5 said...
I used to be a republican but I find myself leaning toward constitutionalism. In many ways I would like to see the country regress in government. Kinda why I am interested in taxes that are both fair to maintain a sustainable government yet fair to the people.
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Harry Callahan said...
Yeah, I'm all about limiting government control and firing off these idiots. For instance, relatively close to me is something called like the Department of Hiring or Employment or something here in Chicago. I mean, we have a department for that? WTF do they even do? Sit around, collect a pay check, claim they hired some people for some BS job that they won't be at in 5 months? It's frustrating. We pay taxes to hire people so they can pay taxes to hire other people that will only minimally contribute to society. And for some reason, people (democrats) seem to openly support this as if it is helping. Unbelievable. It's a damn mental disorder.
Life is frustrating, but I'd rather work and pay taxes so people like college students can vote against me. The alternative is being poor and trying suck off the teet of society so I can get by purchasing crappy clothing, eating fast food, getting fat, and being lazy. Being a republican is far better than the alternative lifestyle. I just fear those that are willing to get relevant degrees, work, and save for retirement are going to be dragged down by the fools of our society.
Just reading this board shows the clear divide between educated republicans in accounting, finance, law, medicine, and other productive areas vs. those with degrees in sociology, theatrical plays of medieval times, or interpretive dance that bring almost no skills to the working world. The 60's brought some important ideas to light, but they've also poisoned the collective brain of society. The sad thing is, that dude with the douche-y Dave Matthews Band picture is just one of millions that don't pay taxes and are seemingly content with making enough money to just get by while relying on taxing those that aspire to do more with their life. Disgusting really. It's like trying to swim with dumbbells attached to your ankles.
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Gfortress5 said...
OK so then, new question. Half my life is basically over but you guys are the ones that have to figure this biotch out over the next few years for yourselves. What does your generation think the answer is to a growing debt, unsustainable SS (which I don't believe in but some folks just don't plan and I hate to have 20 million homeless 70 year olds), and yet still maintain a government that is able to protect the people?
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Harry Callahan said...
Yeah, I'm all about limiting government control and firing off these idiots. For instance, relatively close to me is something called like the Department of Hiring or Employment or something here in Chicago. I mean, we have a department for that? WTF do they even do? Sit around, collect a pay check, claim they hired some people for some BS job that they won't be at in 5 months? It's frustrating. We pay taxes to hire people so they can pay taxes to hire other people that will only minimally contribute to society. And for some reason, people (democrats) seem to openly support this as if it is helping. Unbelievable. It's a damn mental disorder.
Life is frustrating, but I'd rather work and pay taxes so people like college students can vote against me. The alternative is being poor and trying suck off the teet of society so I can get by purchasing crappy clothing, eating fast food, getting fat, and being lazy. Being a republican is far better than the alternative lifestyle. I just fear those that are willing to get relevant degrees, work, and save for retirement are going to be dragged down by the fools of our society.
Just reading this board shows the clear divide between educated republicans in accounting, finance, law, medicine, and other productive areas vs. those with degrees in sociology, theatrical plays of medieval times, or interpretive dance that bring almost no skills to the working world. The 60's brought some important ideas to light, but they've also poisoned the collective brain of society. The sad thing is, that dude with the douche-y Dave Matthews Band picture is just one of millions that don't pay taxes and are seemingly content with making enough money to just get by while relying on taxing those that aspire to do more with their life. Disgusting really. It's like trying to swim with dumbbells attached to your ankles.
I am triple-majoring in international business, finance and accounting?
I would also like to point out that I've been working part-time and paying payroll taxes (and letting the federal government borrow my withheld income tax interest free) every year since I was elligible to work at 16.
I'm sorry political views annoy you, but you are totally wrong about me. I have publicly stated on here we have fiscal problems and agreed that there needs to be reform in every way possible. I'm not sure what makes you think I'm some stereotype you want to project onto me?
Edit: I'd like to add that I may be liberal, but I'm not a fvcking idiot. I'm as realistic as they come.
This post was edited by BamaLivesFootba on 12/12/2012 at 7:41 PM
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BamaLivesFootba said...
It's going to take something that I'm not sure is possible anymore: a reasonable politician to step and say," Hey guys! We've been spending too much and been taxing too little. As a country, we need to choose how we want to fix that."
Personally, its going to be a "Lost Decade"-style stagnancy unless there is a magical growth driver. We are going to have to spend a little less and be taxed a little more. It's going to be a tough bullet to bite. I just hope it doesn't take another Depression or war for us to make the tough decisions.
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Harry Callahan said...
Taxing too little? Ruh, roh. The last thing we nee to do is lower the purchasing power of those living in this country. Jesus.
Economics, accounting, finance, and basic law should be the staples of our education instead of some of these hippy educations we're going towards. My goodness. Increasing taxes? The f'ing morons that tax us can't even help us out! You want to hand them MORE of YOUR money? Hahahahahaha. Liberalism... it's a mental disorder. It's got to be. On that note, I'm going to get some dinner and study so I can be a CPA and hand over more of my hard earned money to you idealistic fools.
Yes. We've not been paying the taxes that are equal to the services we have been delivered. I'm confused why this is such a hard thing to understand?
We were on our way to very good fiscal health until we decided it was ok to keep spending , but cut our taxes.
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AbsenteeTrojan said...
Again, a "flat federal sales tax" that will replace the current income tax would be regressive. A regressive tax system means that, as the income levels rises, the effective tax rates decrease.
Higher income individuals actually spend less of their income (because of investing, savings, etc) than lower income individuals do. Therefore, lower income individuals would be subjected to the "flat federal sales tax" more often and that would be detrimental to being "fair to both sides."
What you're proposing isn't actually all that ridiculous though. There are countries that have tried a modified form of it... called the Value Added Tax. The only difference is that the end consumer isn't the only one who pays taxes. The seller also has to pay tax on the "value added" to the product before the next step in the sales cycle.
I'm pretty sure that the EU and some Scandinavian countries utilize the value added tax. There are some good reads on it out there if you're interested.
i801568
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i801568 said...
Not true - the tax is calculated on how much you spend not the % of your income you spend.
Higher income individuals will consume more than lower income and would pay more of the tax.
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AbsenteeTrojan said...
As mentioned below (thanks btw), you're confusing the argument.
It's a fact that wealthy individuals spend less of their income than low-income individuals do. This fact, by itself, causes a 'federal flat sales tax' or similar structures to be regressive.
Here's an example:
Person A earns $40,000 per year and spends 50% of their income, $20,000. If a 10% tax applies to that consumption, Person A would pay $2,000 in tax. This results in an effective tax rate of 5% of income.
Person B earns $1,000,000 per year and spends 40% of their income, $400,000. This is still a substantial amount of spending. If a 10% tax applies to that consumption, Person B would pay $40,000 in tax. This results in an effective tax rate of 4% of income.
That is what regressive means. Higher incomes pay a lower rate of tax on their income. So yes, higher income individuals would pay 'more tax' but they would pay a LOWER RATE of tax. Most tax structures in place favor progressive systems, as the common belief is a progressive system is more equitable.
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