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bigwilly64
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shavisimo2 said...
Oy vey, it's Friday night and I don't have an hour to find stats to come up with to say why this is ludicrous. But, for example on why AV is ridiculous to best linebackers currently in the NFL, NaVorro Bowman is rated a 34. Lofa Tatupu is a 48. So, a top 5 LB in the game today (as rated by most people, many argued last season that he's the best ILB right now) is significantly lower than a guy who hasn't played since 2010. Ridiculous. 45/188 of your points (about 25%) are in a guy who last played a snap of professional football in 3 years - and that's how you justify your "current players are better for USC" argument.
Also, HOF is 2-0 all time, which you conveniently left out (pretty significant notch on a belt for "position U" designation, wouldn't you agree).
If you are making the argument for this year only, then I understand why you think it is ludicrous. But I thought we were talking about current NFL players (meaning their entire career, so far). So, it depends on that.
For current players encompassing their entire career work to this point, USC wins.
If we are talking about this past year only, then Penn St wins because Cushing, Tatupu, and Perry were all injured.As far as the AV rating, maybe you don't understand how it works, but Bowman is the 2nd highest rated player in his draft class of 2010 (right behind Gronkowski), so I don't know what you are complaining about. The AV rating is based on an a player's entire career, so I guy like Tatupu, who was a top ILB for about 4 years, is going to be rated ahead of a guy like Bowman who has only been starting in the NFL for 2 years.
Good point about the HOF's, that's something that should have been in the comparison.
Although it will be 2-1 when Seau is inducted.The debate with the current LB's is close, but overall throughout USC's and Penn State's history, USC LB's have pretty much doubled Penn State's LB's production in the NFL.
LB's with an NFL Approx Value above 50.
PENN ST (6)
============
Jack Ham 128
Dave Robinson 94
Matt Millen 67
Chuck Drazenovich 64
Ralph Baker 63
Shane Conlan 59USC (12)
===========
Junior Seau 125
Clay Matthews 96
Willie McGinest 78
Rod Martin 76
Chip Banks 72
Marlin McKeever 66
Duane Bickett 63
Charlie Weaver 60
Jack Del Rio 56
Riki Ellison 52
Gary Cobb 51
Richard Wood 51LB's over 70 AV
USC - 5
Penn St - 2LB U must be based on Penn St math, where 6 is greater than 12, and 2 is greater than 5.
This post was edited by NcaaAssassinG13 on 3/9/2013 at 6:59 PM
NcaaAssassinG13
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NcaaAssassinG13 said...
If you are making the argument for this year only, then I understand why you think it is ludicrous. But I thought we were talking about current NFL players (meaning their entire career, so far). So, it depends on that.
For current players encompassing their entire career work to this point, USC wins. If we are talking about this past year only, then Penn St wins because Cushing, Tatupu, and Perry were all injured.
As far as the AV rating, maybe you don't understand how it works, but Bowman is the 2nd highest rated player in his draft class of 2010 (right behind Gronkowski), so I don't know what you are complaining about. The AV rating is based on an a player's entire career, so I guy like Tatupu, who was a top ILB for about 4 years, is going to be rated ahead of a guy like Bowman who has only been starting in the NFL for 2 years.
Good point about the HOF's, that's something that should have been in the comparison. Although it will be 2-1 when Seau is inducted.
The debate with the current LB's is close, but overall throughout USC's and Penn State's history, USC LB's have pretty much doubled Penn State's LB's production in the NFL.
LB's with an NFL Approx Value above 50.
PENN ST (6) ============ Jack Ham 128 Dave Robinson 94 Matt Millen 67 Chuck Drazenovich 64 Ralph Baker 63 Shane Conlan 59
USC (12) =========== Junior Seau 125 Clay Matthews 96 Willie McGinest 78 Rod Martin 76 Chip Banks 72 Marlin McKeever 66 Duane Bickett 63 Charlie Weaver 60 Jack Del Rio 56 Riki Ellison 52 Gary Cobb 51 Richard Wood 51
LB's over 70 AV USC - 5 Penn St - 2
LB U must be based on Penn St math, where 6 is greater than 12, and 2 is greater than 5.
#DicedPineapples
shavisimo2 ●
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shavisimo2 said...
A few things:
This year, PSU is better, as you admit. So - Current success = PSU over USC.
Current players encompassing career, you're including a known substance abuse policy offender and a player who played his last meaningful snap in 2010 . Love that those are your players who nullify the injury factor. Sean Lee has had ridiculous injury struggles and probably matches Cushing + Perry combined. Tatupu last played when Michael Vick was Comeback POTY.
Pretend like I don't understand AV. Tha'ts ridiculous, but I'm complaining about your use of it to say USC's current crop of LB's are better than PSU's when 25% of your current AV is based on Tatupu, a man who hasn't played in 3 years. His total is 33% greater than a guy who is widely regarded as a top 5 LB in the league right now. So, your evaluation of current players is based on AV which has Tatupu well ahead of Bowman. No rational observer would agree with that. But you want to use it to enhance your argument. Cherry picking stats is great and all, but rational observers tend to disagree.
Anyway, PSU was bestowed the honor of LBU from the national media. The media gave our school the honor. Someone else could take it away, but looking at the guys in the NFL right now, it wouldn't make sense to take the honor away. It's not like someone at Penn State said "hey, we're linebacker university." The national media looked at linebacker histories and decided PSU should have that title. As USCtrojan1 said, PSU remains LBU until someone knocks us off that perch. To say that a crop of LBs from USC which is relatively equal to PSU's crop of linebackers takes away that title is short sighted.
PSU is LBU. That doesn't demean USC's crop of LB's of the years. USC has a very rich tradition of LB's. But they are not LBU - not historically and not currently. When people hear LBU, more often than not they think PSU. For good reason. I hope that doesn't change, but success in general is cyclical, so who knows.
NcaaAssassinG13
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shavisimo2 said...
Anyway, PSU was bestowed the honor of LBU from the national media. The media gave our school the honor. Someone else could take it away, but looking at the guys in the NFL right now, it wouldn't make sense to take the honor away. The national media looked at linebacker histories and decided PSU should have that title. As USCtrojan1 said, PSU remains LBU until someone knocks us off that perch. To say that a crop of LBs from USC which is relatively equal to PSU's crop of linebackers takes away that title is short sighted.
This post was edited by NcaaAssassinG13 on 3/9/2013 at 10:01 PM
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NcaaAssassinG13 said...
Not current success, just last season. Next season could be different. Funny all that talk about Tatupu, when you are basing Penn State's merits partly on a guy who was playing defensive end this year (Wake), and partly on another guy (Hali) who played DE his first couple of years.
I was going to give Penn St the edge on the current players, but I decided to look up the numbers after reading your last post.
I'm glad I did, USC's current NFL Linebackers out perform Penn St like usual. It's not as decisive as the all-time LB stats for USC over Penn St are, in fact it's rather close, but USC still has the better numbers.
Stats from each groups top 6 LB's (when playing LB) USC - Matthews,Tatupu,Cushing,Maulauga,Rivers,Maiava. PSU - Bowman,Hali,Wake,Polusnzky,Lee,Connor.
Tackles USC 1,239 Penn St 1,221
Sacks Penn St 85 USC 70
Interceptions USC 26 Penn St 17
Touchdowns USC 3 Penn St 1
I guess you thought a little too highly of your current group of LB's.
BTW, did Wake and Bowman play against USC in the Rose Bowl. Serious question, because if they did, I didn't even notice them out there while USC was scoring at on the Penn St D. Maybe they were hurt.
getmyjive11
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getmyjive11 said...
Why would you give me career tackles when discussing current success? Why would you include Derek Wake when he is now a DE? Why would you include Tatupu when he hasn't played since 2010? Cherry picking as usual.
As for your bowl thing on Wake and Bowman, Wake already graduated and Bowman was named on the "All-Bowl" team after he had a Rose Bowl record 5 tackles for loss. USC abused our DBs... the LBs played well and limited USC to only 61 yards on 35 carries. What a tool you are.
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usctrojan1 ●
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NcaaAssassinG13 said...
Hey, I'm surprised you came back for more abuse. You must love tool.
Bowman played? Really? I must have been too busy celebrating all those touchdowns to notice. Besides, nobody on a defense, that gave up like 30 by halftime had a good game.
Or you must mean it was like Kerry Collins Super Bowl good.
Either way LB U is now located in sunny SoCal . I like how you Penn Staters are avoiding the all-time LB numbers like the plague, must be hard to argue your case when it's about 2/1 in every category in favor of SC.
This post was edited by getmyjive11 on 3/10/2013 at 11:06 AM
getmyjive11
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bigwilly64
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getmyjive11
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NcaaAssassinG13 said...
Not current success, just last season. Next season could be different. Funny all that talk about Tatupu, when you are basing Penn State's merits partly on a guy who was playing defensive end this year (Wake), and partly on another guy (Hali) who played DE his first couple of years.
I was going to give Penn St the edge on the current players, but I decided to look up the numbers after reading your last post.
I'm glad I did, USC's current NFL Linebackers out perform Penn St like usual. It's not as decisive as the all-time LB stats for USC over Penn St are, in fact it's rather close, but USC still has the better numbers.
Stats from each groups top 6 LB's (when playing LB) USC - Matthews,Tatupu,Cushing,Maulauga,Rivers,Maiava. PSU - Bowman,Hali,Wake,Polusnzky,Lee,Connor.
Tackles USC 1,239 Penn St 1,221
Sacks Penn St 85 USC 70
Interceptions USC 26 Penn St 17
Touchdowns USC 3 Penn St 1
I guess you thought a little too highly of your current group of LB's.
BTW, did Wake and Bowman play against USC in the Rose Bowl. Serious question, because if they did, I didn't even notice them out there while USC was scoring at on the Penn St D. Maybe they were hurt.
@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS
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bigwilly64
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NcaaAssassinG13
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bigwilly64 said...
Oh God, you've been hanging out with Nova too much. Posting the smiling emoticons is a dead giveaway.
Alabama has a great LB tradition, and it is only getting better.
@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS
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NcaaAssassinG13 said...
Alabama's not bad, but if going off how much total NFL value produced (granted, there are several different ways to judge a position group- this is just one way) at the linebacker position, then here is the top 10 schools all time
LB ( In terms of NFL value produced)
1-USC
2-Penn St
3-Ohio St
4-Miami
5-UCLA
6-Tennessee
7-Georgia Tech
8-Texas A&M
9-Alabama
10-PittThis post was edited by bigwilly64 on 3/11/2013 at 12:19 PM
bigwilly64
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NcaaAssassinG13 said...
Btw, I'm not saying that the current crop USC LB's takes away the title of LB U, I'm saying that title was taken a long time ago, and I'm not sure exactly why PSU was ever called that in the first place.
That's why I am saying USC is the real LB U, not just given the name by the "national media". It should be earned, not given. How about this, you tell me why Penn St is the real LB U after comparing the resumes.
------------------------------------------------------------USC------------------PSU 1st round NFL draft picks.............................12...........................5 Seasons named All-Pro................................13*........................10 Seasons named to Pro Bowl.........................43.........................26 Hall of Fame(*Seau will be 1st ballot HoF).....0...........................2 Seasons as a primary starter.......................224.......................152 Total amount of LB's w/ AV above 50...........12...........................6 AV rating total value...................................1,627....................1,290 Average AV rating per LB............................27.1......................23.9
*12 without Cushing's year.
The only category Penn St leads is HoF's which will be 2-1 when Seau is inducted. Really, it's not even close, anybody who is not being a homer can see that.
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bigwilly64
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bigwilly64 said...
Ha, cry me a river. Who was better? Are you implying TAMU was better, with their 2 losses at home? Or LSU, whom we BEAT at their house at night? LOL. Alabama was clearly the best team in the country last year.
This post was edited by jmsmooth33 on 3/11/2013 at 3:29 PM
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psubills62 ●
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jmsmooth33
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jmsmooth33 said...
TAMU was clearly bettter than your team, the UF loss was Johnny Football's first career start ever. How can you say your a better than a team that beat you in your own house? Who cares they had two losses was there any doubt thye were the bes team in the country at the end of the year by murdering OU in the bowl game.
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Which School Is Quarterback U?