Black Lives Matter Protests Discussion

Black Lives Matter Protests Discussion

  • scottyberkberk said... (original post)I often wonder how many of the police involved shootings have a victim that is having a mental health crisis. This country as a whole does an ...

    Better thought process here. Nice post

  • I should really start keeping track of the number of clients I represent that have mental health issue. I feel like the majority of them have one and it really explains why some of them commit crimes. Some of them actually tell me they like being in jail because they get their meds and have to stay on them.

  • Psu96 said... (original post)grv can weigh in here, but I know that nurses have to deal with violent people in hospitals when they are messed up on drugs or whatever. I am sure th...

    I don’t always love the comparison between nurses in the ED and police officers because the hospital is a slightly more controlled environment and once you get a line in them you can just sedate them.

    However, yes if a patient comes in completely altered and psychotic, we have to be able to control them without weapons or medications. Our security personnel are trained in submission tactics (no idea of my wording of that is right) as I learned the other night. We had a woman running through the ED half naked and completely off the wall. The PD that helps out in our ED stood there and was threatening to tase the woman. Before that was needed, one of our more tenured security officers brought her down and she was peacefully escorted out (believe she was also arrested, but I didn’t see what happened outside the building).

    It was a beautiful takedown tbh. Woman was completely fine. No one got tased. And not one bystander got injured.

    This post was edited by grv413 1 month ago

  • Lion_in_CBus said... (original post)Actually on the third call, they wanted an ambulance...they could have waited at distance for the ambulance. Many incidents of people with MH t...



    Ok, but do we know that he wasn't chasing his mother with the knife? She had a protective order against him and hes assaulted her before.

    Again the guy may or may not have been mentally ill, but this was not a mentally ill disturbance call. Do we really believe we can or should get to a place where police get called to an assault see a man with a knife and say, ya know what lets back off and wait for someone with mental health training to handle this. I think you'd see a lot of situations where man with the weapon hurts/kills someone while the cops watch.
  • zackattack7 said... (original post)Ok, but do we know that he wasn't chasing his mother with the knife? She had a protective order against him and hes assaulted her before. A...

    The cops would get blamed for that too

  • zackattack7 said... (original post)Ok, but do we know that he wasn't chasing his mother with the knife? She had a protective order against him and hes assaulted her before. A...

    Have you watched the cell phone video? He wasn’t chasing his mom. His mom was trying to stop him from chasing the police. The police were about 10 feet away from him when they killed him.

  • zackattack7 said... (original post)Ok, but do we know that he wasn't chasing his mother with the knife? She had a protective order against him and hes assaulted her before. A...

    Why are you doubting that he didn’t have a mental health issue?

    And isn’t the report on the third call was from the brother asking for mental health services vie an ambulance?

    You seem to care about facts and multiple sources report that he was prescribed lithium and the brother has reported that he asked for an ambulance.

    This post was edited by Lion_in_CBus 1 month ago

  • Freshstart said... (original post)No. It’s the running at police with a knife that’s the problem. Also mental health patience not getting adequate mental health assistance on a re...

    Who ran at the police?

  • Lion_in_CBus said... (original post)Why are you doubting that he didn’t have a mental health issue?And isn’t the report on the third call was from the brother asking for mental he...



    Because I didn't know whether he was or wasn't. The only article I read on it mentioned that the family said something of that sort briefly. I wasn't doubting it, the point i was trying to make was everyone keeps talking about mental health professionals dealing with these situations. When people call the cops saying there is an assault in progress the police show up. Im not sure what a 3rd call from the brother asking for an ambulance matters either. Are you saying the 911 operator should have called the cops who were there and told them an ambulance was on the way and not to engage the guy?

    I watched the video I wish the cops tried to find a better way to subdue him, but I cant see the argument that the cops shouldn't have been involved when you have an assault in progress and man walking around with a knife.
  • zackattack7 said... (original post)Because I didn't know whether he was or wasn't. The only article I read on it mentioned that the family said something of that sort br...

    Who was he assaulting?

    The brother never stated an assault?

    The AP reports that the brother made the third cal and said he was screaming and had a knife.

    I already addressed your question, yes, the police should be back up in a scenario that involves mental health.

    The data on suicide cops is anywhere between 25-50 percent of all police shootings.

    We have notes from people W/ MH history who admit they are going to provoke the cops to shoot them.

    So why not take that option away?

  • Lion_in_CBus said... (original post)Who was he assaulting? The brother never stated an assault? The AP reports that the brother made the third cal and said he was screaming and ha...



    I'm not disagreeing with you. Theres a story from a few years ago in Texas that ended with a gentleman dying almost identical to George Floyd. He called the cops on himself because he forgot to take his meds and he was going crazy. Cops ending up pinning him down with a knee on the neck and he died.

    In cases like that I agree mental health professionals could deal with that. Im just not sure what you're arguing here? The brother made the 3rd call. There was already another call made to the police about an assault in progress. Im not sure what happened prior to the cell phone camera going on, but im really not sure what policy could be changed to stop police from responding to the initial call of assault.
  • zackattack7 said... (original post)I'm not disagreeing with you. Theres a story from a few years ago in Texas that ended with a gentleman dying almost identical to George Flo...

    Yes, you are...you literally said when I proposed te idea that using MH preofessionals that it wouldn’t work...

    Can you show the article that references this call for an assault?

    The third call I am referencing is in reference to the idea that this was the third time that day that someone was coming to the house and it was made by the family.

    This post was edited by Lion_in_CBus 1 month ago

  • zackattack7 said... (original post)I'm not disagreeing with you. Theres a story from a few years ago in Texas that ended with a gentleman dying almost identical to George Floyd. H...


    I am not disagreeing with you, just listen to me be contrary for a bit with no logical conclusion in mind.
  • Murphy704 said... (original post)Have you watched the cell phone video? He wasn’t chasing his mom. His mom was trying to stop him from chasing the police. The police were about 10 ...

    I think he is making an honest mistake and confusing some reports of Wallace’s history with this specific incident.

    Maybe the 911 calls will change the story, but most people are going with the AP news story.

    This post was edited by Lion_in_CBus 1 month ago

  • Lion_in_CBus said... (original post)I think he is making an honest mistake and confusing some reports of Wallace’s history with this specific incident. Maybe the 911 calls will ch...

    he seems to make a lot of "honest mistakes" when it comes to black people being brutalized by the police.

  • SDNittany said... (original post)I am not disagreeing with you, just listen to me be contrary for a bit with no logical conclusion in mind.



    No I have a very logical conclusion. Saying police shouldn't be involved when someone calls the police and says there is an assault in progress isn't a realistic expectation. Its all I've said from the beginning.
  • zackattack7 said... (original post)No I have a very logical conclusion. Saying police shouldn't be involved when someone calls the police and says there is an assault in prog...

    Can you show the article that claims that there was an assault in progress?

  • bitsiepookums said... (original post)he seems to make a lot of "honest mistakes" when it comes to black people being brutalized by the police.

    I gotta say. It is incredibly rich you pointing out facts being wrong in a police shooting when I've posted constant examples of the initial stories being massaged or simply flat out lies by the media, attorneys and others to make these situations appear worse.

    "On Monday Philadelphia police responded to reports of a person screaming as well as a report of a 27-year-old male assaulting an elderly female at a home on the 6100 block of Locust Street.

    When officers arrived they found Wallace holding a knife, according to investigators. A viral video of the incident shows Wallace, a Black man, walking toward the officers while a woman, who a witness identified as Wallace's mother, tries to stop him. Two armed police officers back away from Wallace and tell him at least twice to "put the knife down" though it's unclear from the video whether or not Wallace is holding a knife"

    https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/walter-wallace-jr-struggled-with-mental-health-issues-family-says/2575493/

  • Lion_in_CBus said... (original post)Can you show the article that claims that there was an assault in progress?

    yes see above

  • This situation is very similar to a police officer shooting a mentally ill man we had in State College in March 2019. There have been protests about the shooting for over a year now, but nothing ever escalated into violence. There is no place for it.

    'No Excuse For The Looting': Biden, Trump Respond To Philadelphia Protests

    In the final days of the presidential election, the two leading candidates in the race, President Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden, have both focused most heavily on condemning any violence and looting as part of demonstrations against police brutality.

    Speaking at an event in Paradise, Nev., on Wednesday, Trump, a Republican, downplayed his moral opinion on the shooting itself, instead focusing his attention on the protests, which he said were the result of soft leadership from Democrats on the city and state level.

    "It's a terrible thing. What I'm witnessing is terrible. And, frankly, that the mayor, or whoever it is, that's allowing people to riot and loot and not stop them is also just a horrible thing," he said.

    "I saw the event — everybody did, it was on television — it was a terrible event. I guess that's being looked at very strongly. We have federal — the federal government is looking at it also. But the rioting in Philadelphia, you have to stop it. They have to stop it. It's a local thing, as you know," Trump said, adding that he would readily send in federal law enforcement to suppress any violent uprisings.

    "You got to have law and order. You've got to have respect for our police," he said, trotting out his long-favored talking point of a police system crippled by Democrat inaction.

    Biden, the Democratic nominee, on Wednesday said that he would set up a commission to better deal with how police interact with people dealing with mental health issues, but he forcefully condemned any violence and looting during the protests.

    "There is no excuse whatsoever for the looting and the violence. None whatsoever. I think to be able to protest is totally legitimate. It's totally reasonable. But I think that the looting is just as the victim's father said, 'Do not do this. ... You're not helping. You're hurting. You're not helping my son,' " Biden, who has been accused by Republicans as being soft on crime, said to reporters after he cast his early ballot near his home in Wilmington, Del.

    "There are certain things we're going to have to do as we move along. ... And that is how we deal with how you diminish the prospect of lethal shooting in circumstances like the one we saw. That's going to be part of the commission I set up to determine how we deal with these. ... But there's no excuse for the looting," he said.

  • Psu96 said... (original post)This situation is very similar to a police officer shooting a mentally ill man we had in State College in March 2019. There have been protests about t...

    You really have multiple issues at the same time and honestly I'm really not sure there is a realistic fix to them.

    1. Rightly or wrongly, the rhetoric around police right now is they are systemically racist and they as an organization are the problem. If that's the message being put out there I'm really not sure how you can expect violence not to be directed towards them.

    2. Because of the sensitivity of the issue, the automatic reaction is to tell police to stand down and avoid more issues, so at that point obviously people with a criminal mindset are going to take advantage.

    To me the solution to potentially stop it is worse then the problem. Not really sure tactically what the police would do under normal circumstances if a large mob of people decided to smash a store open and rob the place blind but I would imagine it would involve a swat team and a lot of weapons. Under these circumstances I can't imagine that ends well.

  • zackattack7 said... (original post)You really have multiple issues at the same time and honestly I'm really not sure there is a realistic fix to them.1. Rightly or wrongly, t...

    It might seem like splitting hairs, but I don't think the message is that the police are systemically racist. More that the system itself is racist and the police are just one of the most obvious examples of that as part of the system.

    For instance, if the system benefits from putting more people in private prisons and makes marijuana possession a jailable offense, Blacks are going to be disproportionately on the worse end of that. If we don't offer affordable healthcare and we send police to deal with someone having an episode in a low-income neighborhood because our system offers no other options, Blacks are going to be disproportionately on the worse end of that.

    If our country systemically makes it harder for Blacks to get good-paying jobs, which makes them more likely to be involved in some type of crime just to survive, the police MIGHT be more likely to profile them. If the country's system sends a message that Black lives are inherently worth less than White, the country is racist and, by extension, some people in the police are going to be overtly racist and either less likely to try to solve confrontations with Blacks without violence or more likely to harass Blacks out of pure spite.

    As for your second point, a lot of people have been saying we need to involve healthcare professionals and social workers in some of these situations with the police. So I think your contention that the automatic reaction is to tell police to stand down is off-base. I mean, we also could say just throwing up our hands and saying we can't do better allows racist or just plain unqualified cops to take advantage. I'm not sure why we keep getting this position that the people who are there to protect us, who are supposed to be best equipped to deal with life and death situations without making them deadly, and who have the most authority and firepower in these situations are the least accountable for their actions.

  • zackattack7 said... (original post)I gotta say. It is incredibly rich you pointing out facts being wrong in a police shooting when I've posted constant examples of the initia...

    you've been consistently wrong on a lot of the police involved shootings, notably the particulars surrounding the Taylor case. You also consistently embrace far right talking points and then couch them in some kind of bizzare "I see both sides" moderation. Your views are trash.

  • PCmor said... (original post)It might seem like splitting hairs, but I don't think the message is that the police are systemically racist. More that the system itself is raci...

    1) The police have become public enemy number 1 and it's Liberal's fault

    2) The system should have never allowed for private prisons. That should be criminal

    3) Marijuana possession should be encouraged

    4) It's not the system's fault if a criminal goes to jail...proportionally or otherwise.

    5) affordable healthcare won't be coming regardless of who gets elected here but at least Joe is telling the correct lie on this subject.

    6) it's never been better for a black dude to get a job ....pull your head out of your keister on this subject. It's never been easier for a minority to get into college...it's never been easier for a minority to get a small business funding of a variety of different options.

    7) Is anyone asking the healthcare professionals if they want that job? If so and they want the job then that should happen today. I suspect that'll be a tough job to fill.

    8) all human beings should have the right to defend themselves. the current narrative is encouraging POC to attack police and then blame police for defending themselves. That obviously needs to change along with increasing training and employing healthcare professionals in some capacity.

    9) Saying that living in American means you are going to get shot by a cop is dishonest and inflammatory. Implying that narrative is true in every conceivable way but then following it up with "rioting is wrong' does nothing what so ever to stop rioting before it starts.

  • PCmor said... (original post)It might seem like splitting hairs, but I don't think the message is that the police are systemically racist. More that the system itself is raci...

    When I speak of telling police to stand down, I'm speaking of during protests/riots.

    We can say looting and violence is unacceptable all we want but in almost all these cases the mayors and governors of these cities are instructing the police not to do anything about it which is why the looting happens.