Are We Really as Talented as We Think We Are??

Are We Really as Talented as We Think We Are??

  • You hear on a regular basis, from both pundits on TV and posters on these boards, that the Browns are too talented to be 5-7. But, is that really the case??

    No question that we're more talented than we were before Dorsey arrived on the scene....but, are we really more talented than most of our opponents....and, more talented to the point that we would be cruising to the playoffs with better coaching and/or better execution??

    I'd say we've got 7 players who could go start anywhere in the league tomorrow....5 on offense (Chubb, Hunt, Jarvis, OBJ and Bitonio)....and 2 on defense (Myles and Ward....altho Ward's star isn't shining quite as bright as it was). That's not a bad core group of players....altho, it's a little light on the defensive side of the ball.

    If you look at things from a unit standpoint, it might shake out like this....

    RBs - Exceptional with Chubb and Hunt.

    WRs - Above Average....I'd say Exceptional if we were getting the kind of production out of OBJ that we all anticipated.

    QB - Average....for now anyway....with the potential for considerable upside.

    OL - Below Average....bordering on Abysmal....only 2 real NFL level starters.

    TEs - Average once we get Njoku back.

    DL - Above Average with Myles....Average without him.

    LBs - Below Average.

    CBs - Above Average on talent....Average on production,

    Safeties - Below Average.

    Special Teams - Above Average....but, I still want to see Siebert make a 40+ yard kick with the game on the line...and the Scottish Hammer needs a good haircut.

    So, bottomline, is our overall talent that much better than most of the other teams hanging around the .500 mark right now?? Is it as good as the top 5 or 6 teams in the league??

    We're heading in the right direction, but Dorsey's still got a lot of work to do....particularly, on the OL....and just about everywhere on defense with the exception of Myles and the Corners....and even Ward and Greedy still have something to prove.

  • Discussion
  • TheDutchman said... (original post) You hear on a regular basis, from both pundits on TV and posters on these boards, that the Browns are too talented to be 5-7. But, is that real...

    "You hear on a regular basis, from both pundits on TV and posters on these boards, that the Browns are too talented to be 5-7. But, is that really the case??"

    -- On any football team, the talent level is a moveable feast. The Browns aren't that far from being an 0-16 team and are still a WIP. No doubt there was more anticipation than reality in this last off-season by the media and the fans. (And perhaps some of the players. Right, Baker?) Anyway, any ranking of talent level would vary injury to injury or year to year. The question is: Are we getting as much as possible from the talent we have and is the talent level being coached up as best as possible and will that happen in the future?

    "We're heading in the right direction, but Dorsey's still got a lot of work to do..."

    -- You seem to think we are. I'm not so sure of that. I'd change your statement to: "I hope we have the right guys in place to do the work that will enable us to head in the right direction." I'd hate to find out that the excitement and possibility that was engendered by last year's play has been wasted through mismanagement.

  • I agree with your assessments except I'm not sure I would rate WR above average for a couple of reasons. One, OBJ is not playing at the level he was previously. PFF ranks him as the 49th best WR this season. Landry is 16th. We have no third or fourth receiver. Landry and Beckham have played 750-775 snaps each. The third highest is Ratley with 188 snaps, then Higgins at 172. Neither of them has had any impact whatsoever other then Higgins' TD against the Bills. The two of them have combined for one significant play.

    So we have one very good WR, one average starter, and nothing behind them. Also, Njoku went down in Week 2 and hasn't returned so there goes our starting TE. IMO, lack of depth at WR/TE has been a big part of the problem. Think about last season when Baker went on his run. He typically hit 7-8 receivers every game. At WR he had Landry, Calloway, Higgins and Perriman, all of whom played well. He had Njoku at TE and Duke Johnson out of the backfield. That's a lot of targets and he used them all.

    Fast forward to this year. Calloway was suspended, came back and played like crap, and was released after a failed drug test. Perriman was traded before the season. Higgins got hurt in Week 1 and has barely played since. Duke was traded before the season with no replacement until Game 9 when Hunt returned. Njoku has been out all but one game, which we got blown out.

    So the first half of the season the only legitimate targets Baker had were Landry and OBJ. Beckham did not participate in any of the OTA's due to a hip problem and then took it slow in TC while not playing in a single exhibition game. No time to develop any timing with Baker. No wonder he's ranked 49th. He barely trained this summer and in TC.

    PFF ranks each team's wide receivers based on performance, not reputation. As of today the Browns are 19th, just below average. Other PFF Browns rankings:

    Pass bocking: 19th

    Run blocking: 28th

    Yes, the offensive line sucks. It's amazing that Chubb has a shot at a 1,500 yard season behind this line. Trading Zeitler looks like a mistake in hindsight even though Vernon is a good player.

    Rushing: 1st. Nick Chubb is the Man. Imagine what he could do with a strong run blocking line. 2,000 yards, baby.

    Passing: 15th. They have Baker as average.

    Defense: 22nd

    Run defense: 28th. Some things never change.

    Tackling: 23rd. Big improvement from last season's 31.

    Pass rush: 8th. That number will slip with Garrett out and Vernon dinged up.

    Coverage: 12th. Between the rush and the coverage the overall pass defense has not been bad, even with Greedy and Ward missing four games at the same time, Burnett and Mitchell going on IR, and Whitehouse being released.

    Special teams: 11th. Really happy with the new coach and rookie kicker and punter (but keeping an eye on the kicker).

    I agree, the Browns are not that talented a team individually. They only grade above average in a couple of areas. We haven't even discussed the coaching and schedule, which has been brutal. They have some good players but too many holes. They're only one season away from 0-16 so it's not realistic to expect them to have solid starters at every position.

    I know my expectations were too high. I assumed Zeitler would not be traded without a decent player ready to step in (wrong) and I assumed OBJ would be the same player he was with the Giants (not even close), and I assumed Callaway, Njoku, and Higgins would pick right up from where they left off last year (wrong, wrong, and wrong). I assumed Ward would improve his second year and make the Pro Bowl (way wrong) and that the additions of Vernon and Richardson would make the DL one of the top five in the league (wrong, but not too far off). I thought OBJ and Landry would draw so much double coverage that Higgins, Callaway, and Njoku would tear it up for the first eight games and then would be joined by Hunt to make the offense unstoppable (wrong).

    Yeah, going unit by unit and player by player, this team has a lot of issues. The nasty schedule hasn't helped and neither has the coaching. There was a lot of hype around the acquisition of OBJ and Hunt and based on the strong finish last year. They're not there yet, either personnelwise or coaching.

    This post was edited by PROSECUTOR 8 months ago

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) I agree with your assessments except I'm not sure I would rate WR above average for a couple of reasons. One, OBJ is not playing at the lev...

    I wouldn't disagree with ya on the WRs....I guess my ranking of them is more based on potential than it is on production.

    My affinity for Jarvis probably clouds my ranking of them a bit too. I just appreciate the way the guy plays the game.....he doesn't leave anything on the field. Last week wasn't his greatest game with the early drop, the later deep ball from Baker that he couldn't quite come up with and, finally, the miscommunication on the last drive that resulted in the game ending INT. But, I'll still take him any day over OBJ.

    I'm still completely puzzled over the disappearance of Higgins....I know he had the injury....but, he's just not really even a factor anymore with the exception of the Bills game where he caught the game winner. Callaway was always an accident waiting to happen. Perriman seemed to have found a home until the OBJ trade pulled the rug out from under him.

    In any event, a unit that appeared to be a strong point going forward after last year's finish, is now an average group that has significantly underachieved.

  • TheDutchman said... (original post) I wouldn't disagree with ya on the WRs....I guess my ranking of them is more based on potential than it is on production. My affinity for ...

    Yeah, and combine that with one of the worst run blocking lines that is also below average pass blocking plus a mishmash of tight ends thrown away by other teams and Baker hasn't had much to work with. It's been hand it to Chubb or throw it to Landry; nothing else has worked very well until Hunt showed up.

    I'd love to see them get a great pass catching TE next year. Baker seems to like throwing to TE's. They have a big catch radius, they can rip the ball away from smaller defensive backs on contested passes (like Carlson did in the end zone against Pittsburgh and again this week on a slant pattern), and they can drag defenders for YAC. They can help a tackle pass block against a great edge rusher, or chip the rusher and leak out into the flat. They're great in the red zone on jump balls.

    Unfortunately, they will need 2-3 starters on the offensive line which has to be the #1 priority. Dorsey has signed a starting tight end each of the last two years in free agency and he also traded for Seals-Jones during the season. The problem is that the guys he signs are average or below.

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) Yeah, and combine that with one of the worst run blocking lines that is also below average pass blocking plus a mishmash of tight ends thrown aw...

    "Unfortunately, they will need 2-3 starters on the offensive line which has to be the #1 priority."

    -- It's not like no one saw the weakness on the O-line before the season even started. (Except for those who hoped a new o-line coach would do magic). And Dorsey added to it by trading away Zeitler. That's the most worrisome. Not that we have holes. Not a surprise on a WIP. But it's the seeming inability by our FO to even half-way pay attention to dealing with significant problems that are waving red flags for all to see.

    Until we are sure we have a power structure that we can trust to focus on issues that arise and prioritize them intelligently, then all discussion of needs is just talk. Which, come to think of it, is what we do around here...

  • No team is as talented as their fans would like to believe, but we certainly loss some winnable games.

  • redright said... (original post) No team is as talented as their fans would like to believe, but we certainly loss some winnable games.

    SD:

    We had comparable talent vs every team we played this year , for F Cks sake we beat one of the so called best teams in football convincingly in their place no less .

    Nope our problem has been lack of focus ,lack of leadership and poor in game coaching ,or stubborn deep rooted stupidity in forcing a coaching system over coaching to the talent at hand and tailoring it to your competition to hide your weaknesses and hammer teams with your strength.

    Young teams make mistakes , new coaches make mistakes ,however we seem to have a failure to learn from these lessons and repeat the same stupid gaffes.

    On top of it all our QB play this year has too often been subpar especially in the clutch , Dude has as many Redzone picks as Kizer ,as a result it produced multiple 14 point turnarounds in multiple games which can be directly attribute to losing .

    Tom Brady would kill for our offensive skill positions .

    >>>>>

    SoulDawg

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) Yeah, and combine that with one of the worst run blocking lines that is also below average pass blocking plus a mishmash of tight ends thrown aw...

    Yeah....we need to find our Travis Kelce.....ASAP.

    Maybe Carlson can be that guy....or at least a reasonable facsimile that can give Baker another reliable target.

    Or maybe Njoku will finally develop into the guy that we thought we drafted when we moved back into the end of the 1st round of the 2017 draft to grab him.....his absence hasn't helped Baker.

  • TheDutchman said... (original post) , but Dorsey's still got a lot of work to do....particularly, on the OL.....



    I'm am hopeful that Dorsey is the right person for the OL work, but I have some pretty serious concerns that he is. It's easy to point to the Zeitler trade and Corbett pick and call it a day, but there have been questionable moves all over the place. Obviously the RG options he had in place after the trade were nowhere near adequate, forcing him to make 2 trades just prior to cutdown day, and while McCray has done yoeman's work, neither has done much. Every GM misses on picks and FA signings, but evidence is starting to build that OL isn't one of Dorsey's strong suits. We'll see.

    Even beyond specific personnel decisions, though, just the construction of the line has been suspect. The Browns went into the season with only one backup tackle - Lamm - and no one else who was able to play (technically Corbett who had already flamed out by then and Bitonio who has other responsibilities) at all. So when Robinson and Lamm both went down - bad luck - they were forced to play McCray at tackle, a position he never played, not even in college. (And, actually, even with Lamm healthy again, they still started McCray at LT this past week, making Lamm yet another FA miss). That's just poor roster construction. Even at C, there's Tretter and no one, since Corbett was once again the backup plan there, and was traded away. Even at the peripherals, he got rid of Fells, a TE known for his blocking, and Charles, a FB who was effective last year. While they're obviously not OL, they were part of the overall protection scheme, so they count in this conversation to an extent.

    Pretty much every area that Dorsey made a move, from planning to execution, seems to have had a negative impact. It might have been the perfect storm of bad luck, but, again, the evidence is mounting that maybe Dorsey just doesn't have a handle on this part of the roster. Hopefully he'll get that and get he'll in the off-season.

    This post was edited by DSkribes 8 months ago

  • SoulDawg74 said... (original post) SD:We had comparable talent vs every team we played this year , for F Cks sake we beat one of the so called best teams in football convincingly ...

    "We had comparable talent vs every team we played this year , for F Cks sake we beat one of the so called best teams in football convincingly in their place no less."

    As impressive as that win over the Ravens was, I think we can all agree that the team we beat in Week 4 isn't the same team that's rolling everybody right now....their only two wins at that point were over Miami and Arizona....and they were coming off of a loss to the Chiefs.

    They've obviously hit their stride offensively since then.....and fortified their defense with a few trades and guys returning from injury. We'll get our shot in a few weeks to see how me match up with the current version and, hopefully, we knock their dicks in the dirt again....but, it ain't gonna be easy.

    "Tom Brady would kill for our offensive skill positions."

    Yeah.....he probably would....altho, you'd have a hard time getting him to give up Edelman or White....or accept our OL as part of the deal.

    The problem is tho that a lot of our elite talent is concentrated in the skill positions.....while we go lacking at other positions that allow those skill position players to flourish. That's a good problem to have....until your OL can't hold up against the pass rush and your defense can't get off the field against pedestrian free agent QBs.

    No one's saying we don't have talent....just saying we've still got some work to do before we can go toe to toe with the teams currently at the top of the pyramid.....and, I think we all know where those weaknesses are.

    As Red Right said, fans always tend to overrate their guys.

  • TheDutchman said... (original post) "We had comparable talent vs every team we played this year , for F Cks sake we beat one of the so called best teams in football convincin...

    Dutch >

    """No one's saying we don't have talent....just saying we've still got some work to do before we can go toe to toe with the teams currently at the top of the pyramid.....and, I think we all know where those weaknesses are.

    As Red Right said, fans always tend to overrate their guys."""

    SD74:

    On the contraire, you've seemed to have answered your own question raised about the talent .

    However you only questioned the physical attributes and didn't explore the intangible talents of mental toughness focus and will .

    On that the Browns are deficient in all phases , loaded with me first crybabies , prima donna azzholes divas and selfish individuals masquerading as stars taking their cue from a stubborn delusional first year HC with more juvenile tendencies than his dumb azz players mistakenly operating under the assumption he's a rock star himself ,branding T shirts and perpetuating a victim mentality instead of focussing on dispatching all comers and overcoming all obstacles.

    We have as talented a group of individuals as you'll find in the league , but we're probably 36 out of a 32 team league when it comes to operating effectively as a team , which puts us behind about four other franchises backup rosters let alone their starting contingents.

    The inbred beat us with their backup offense after we raced out to a double digit lead .

    That's damnable stuff and points to a much needed command change over a roster issue.

    ( Not withstanding known holes and deficiencies ).

    SoulDawg

  • DSkribes said... (original post) I'm am hopeful that Dorsey is the right person for the OL work, but I have some pretty serious concerns that he is. It's easy to point t...

    Your concerns over Dorsey and his handling of the OL are certainly valid ones.

    The "situation at RG" has been mishandled from the beginning....you don't make the Zietler trade unless you're 100% certain you've got his replacement in-house...not when you've got a 6 foot QB who needs to be able to rely on a solid interior of the OL. When Corbett couldn't beat out a couple of tomato cans in training camp, it was obvious we had a problem.

    Dorsey gambled that we could get by with Robinson and Hubbard for another year....and lost. They had held up reasonable well over the last half of the 2018 season...but, that was against some bad defenses without the kind of edge rushers that exposed them both as turnstiles.

    Let's hope Tretter can gut it out for another 4 games....he's playing on one leg again....and, as you pointed out, there's really no one behind him.

    Dorsey fell in love with the skill position guys...and forgot all about the trenches. And that's something I never thought I'd hear myself say about him.

  • SoulDawg74 said... (original post) Dutch >"""No one's saying we don't have talent....just saying we've still got some work to do before we can go ...

    SD - "On the contraire, you've seemed to have answered your own question raised about the talent."

    Trying to muddy the waters with that French bullshit...I see how you are. I'm not sure I get your drift on the issue of answering my own question. My question wasn't whether we have talent...no question we do....but, rather whether we're as talented as we all think we are....across the board....not just at the skill positions.

    SD - "However you only questioned the physical attributes and didn't explore the intangible talents of mental toughness focus and will."

    I would agree that there's a distinction to be made between "talent" and "production".....OBJ's obviously a very talented WR.....but, the production just isn't there...this year anyway. There's probably a lot of reasons for that...including many that you listed.....i.e. mental toughness, focus, will, etc. That's why I enjoy watching Jarvis play much more so than OBJ....he brings the talent and the intangibles to the field.

    SD - "We have as talented a group of individuals as you'll find in the league."

    So, your answer to my original question is Yes.....we are as talented as we all think we are. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one if you're talking about talent across the board tho....again, not just skill position players. We've got a solid core of players with elite talent...but, Dorsey still has some work to do to finish the job.....OL, LB, S.

    SD - "That's damnable stuff and points to a much needed command change over a roster issue."

    It's possible we need both....a command change and more talent at certain positions. I was trying to keep the Freddie question out of the discussion but...... His future will play out over these next 4 games....it's possible a strong finish saves his bacon for another year.....it's possible that Dorsey and Haslam feel that his faults are correctable and there are issues beyond his control that would merit a 2nd year, regardless of how we finish....or, it's possible they decide to move on and go thru another HC search....one year after the last one.

    My opinion is he should get a second year to either prove or disprove himself......but, I also understand why quite a few here have already turned the page on him....and Dorsey and Haslam may do end up doing the same.

    But, if they do....get ready for Mike McCarthy Redux.....the guy nobody wanted last time around.


  • Arghhhhhhhhhh to McCarthy. There has got to be better choices, doesn't there?

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) Arghhhhhhhhhh to McCarthy. There has got to be better choices, doesn't there?

    Todd Monken with Ron Rivera as the new DC? Meaning: Yes, of course there are other choices if we do make a change at HC. The OC at Minnesota...?

    When you bring up "talent" on the team, you have to include the coaching staff and the FO in that if you want to have a meaningful discussion. It all begins there and the on-field part of talent is utilized there either rightly or wrongly. Sadly, Jim Bob is the final judge on that. Do we have a good power structure that just hit a few bumps this year? Or do we have a fundamentally flawed edifice that needs renovation? Perhaps even major renovation...

    At this point, I think making Freddie the HC right away was a bridge too far. The poor guy had never been in a significant position prior to this. And he seems slow to learn from, adjust or even admit to mistakes made by him. Alas, it's too late to demote him to OC now or expect a new HC to want him around. (That might have been ideal last year...) A major Dorsey screw-up regarding a key role. Just an anomaly or does it indicate a flaw in Dorsey's ability to function long-term as a solid GM?

    That's the sort of baggage that Jim Bob should be kicking around in the attics of his mind. Which is probably a cold, dark place full of shadows. Scary thought.

    Edit: Or Ron Rivera as new HC with Monken as a front and center OC and play-caller...?

    This post was edited by ergoipso 8 months ago

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) Arghhhhhhhhhh to McCarthy. There has got to be better choices, doesn't there?

    Yeah....there are better choices than McCarthy. But, a front office that hires a HC with no prior HC experience and only 8 games of OC experience....and then turns around and fires him one year later....doesn't really scream stability for any young, up and coming coach who has other options.

    McCarthy would be a safe play for a front office that just got burned taking a chance and wants to play it safe this time around.

    Having said that, I still think Freddie lives to fight another day because I don't think Dorsey would have hired the guy if he intended to give up on him after one year. And, I think there are extenuating circumstances that would merit giving Freddie a 2nd year....i.e. OL problems, a QB who may not have prepared himself for Year 2 as well as he could have, the difficulty of incorporating OBJ and all the baggage he brings with him into the offense, etc. etc.

    But, I can also see the position of those who think he has to go carrying the day with Haslam and Dorsey too....it really just depends on whether or not they think his faults can be corrected...or do they see him as the root of all of our problems.

    They've certainly got a better feel for that than we do because they're in the building day in and day out and can see where things may be going in the wrong direction.

    This post was edited by TheDutchman 8 months ago

  • TheDutchman said... (original post) Yeah....there are better choices than McCarthy. But, a front office that hires a HC with no prior HC experience and only 8 games of OC experien...

    "... it really just depends on whether or not they think his faults can be corrected...or do they see him as the root of all of our problems."

    -- I don't think that's necessarily the way to evaluate things. Even if it's decided that Freddie's faults can't be corrected, it doesn't then follow that he's "the root of all of our problems". That just makes him a problem. A big problem, but not the root. It's even possible that his faults can be corrected eventually. But it'll take so long that he'll hold the team back during a time of hoped for progress. So replacing Freddie and taking care of that one problem won't magically rid the team of the root of problems.

    If in fact that step is made, there will still be questions regarding the FO who put him in place to start with. Jim Bob needs to decide if the GM who hired Freddie is the right guy to hire his replacement as well. As well as other moves, of course. It'll be swell if continuity reigns and all is well and Freddie keeps on keeping on. But only if that's the end result of a thorough and independent evaluation of the power structure.

    And there's a little voice asking the question: Did Dorsey suspect that Freddie was going to flame out this year and brought in Monken as his replacement if Freddie showed the world how ill-prepared he was as a HC? Not a bad idea to have a Plan B ready to go if need be.

  • TheDutchman said... (original post) Yeah....there are better choices than McCarthy. But, a front office that hires a HC with no prior HC experience and only 8 games of OC experien...

    A few thoughts.

    My problem with McCarthy is that I think he somewhat rode Rodger's shrttails, and didn't get the most out of that talent. He also lost games with Aaron Jones sitting on the bench last year, and if a HC can't spot and utilize the talent right under his nose, he's not going to do it anywhere. There may be a current trend for running the football and playing great defense, but it won't last. The league is too invested in the entertainment value of high scoring games, and boring offensive philosphies won't cut it. Even run first offenses like Seattle and Baltimore bring the sizzle from the QB postiion to make unorthodox magic.

    My problem with Rivera is that he's a Luddite when it comes to analytics and technology. IMO, he'd bring discipline to the team, but would hold the franchise back in the long term by being a step behind on the latest tools. Remember, too, the whispers that Mayfield and Monken were not so sympatico.

    I think the Browns could attract a whip smart young coordinator. First, there's only 32 HC jobs, so there's always going to be plenty of possible candidates. Secondly, the Browns are not in full rebuild, so getting off to a losing start can be avoided. So many new, inexperienced HC's start out handicapped by minimal talent and prospects of winning. They struggle for a year or two, get associated with failure, and get the boot just as the team might improve. The Browns should aim for a seasoned coordinator with strong management skills, maybe a Matt Eberflus type, rather than a one or two year wonder who's still green outside their speciality.

    Getting the right coach is incredibley difficult, I don't envy any front office trying to dig one up. Frank Reich has done great in Indy, but that team is still struggling. Matt Nagy was coach of the year last year, this year he's hurting. Philly looks all f"""ked up two years after winning the SB. McVey's all messed up and Goff looks rattled. Andy Reid can't quite win a SB after all these years. Do we want a Vrabel, a Tomlin, an Anthony Lynn? John Harbaugh comes out of speical teams and seems really good, but 12 months ago he was on the hot seat. Adam Gase sniffs smelling salts right before kick off and has crackhead eyeballs. Pete Carroll was a failure in two NFL stops before getling to Seattle.

    There's no measuring stick or scale of weights that work consistently. No app that can filter out the keywords on a resume and point you to the best candidate. Getting the right coach seems to me to be 10% interview, 20% intuition, and 70% blind f''''king luck.

  • Most likely we are more talent than 'what we think we have'. Aside from potential talent we have established talent which is WHY everyone within and on the outside was pimping us at the start of the season. Doesn't matter how much talent you have if its not being utilized the right way. Just like when you don't have talent and you see what coaching can do (See Mumbles, Tomblin and others) I'll echo SD's words which I have used already. We have SHOWN what we can do to some of the best teams in the NFL. The problems is the same old story. We can't show consistency in maintaining it. Bad play calling, lack of adjustments, lack of discipline have been seen the ENTIRE season. We get out coached each week on game day. We have a HC wanting to be a buddy rather than kicking **** and hold players accountable. Can't or won't move off his script of plays. Claiming after every loss nothing needs to be changed but making his script work. Baker has shown he 'can' play at a high level. Maybe Freddie should work harder on knocking off that chip on his shoulder rather than added to it. Baker is far from a finished product but has 'shown' as much ability as ANY of the top draft picks. His problem is the same as the teams. Lack of coaching. The defense has shown signs of being good enough but again not consistent. Why? Coaching again. Not only has Freddie failed the offense but can you think of ONE thing he contributed to the defense? You won't know what we have until you have someone with the ability to bring out all the talent we do have in order to see what is still missing. Freddie, Wilks need to go. Dorsey should be viewed as on thin ice but given one more shot only due Freddie's inept use of the talent we do have.

  • hamster said... (original post) Most likely we are more talent than 'what we think we have'. Aside from potential talent we have established talent which is WHY everyone ...

    "You won't know what we have until you have someone with the ability to bring out all the talent we do have in order to see what is still missing."

    -- There's some truth in that. From the outside, how can you accurately judge talent if you suspect the HC of not getting the best out of it? On the other hand, how can you accurately judge HCs from the outside if you suspect the talent isn't giving their best? An enigma wrapped in a ball of confusion that you're trying to Catch-22 with your eyes closed on a dark and stormy night. Where's the guy who can take his'n and beat your'n and then take your'n and beat his'n?

    I will say this: Freddie should only be sent packing if there's a high percentage chance that you have a better HC choice ready and willing to jump in. (Todd Monken?) Right now, it feels like that wouldn't be too hard. Freddie seems like a guy better calculated to take his'n and lose to your'n and then take your'n and lose to his'n. But be careful of what you wish for, my old nurse used to say.

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) A few thoughts.My problem with McCarthy is that I think he somewhat rode Rodger's shrttails, and didn't get the most out of that talen...

    Lot of good points there. Assuming Freddie does end up walking the plank....and I'm far from convinced that will happen....I'm not sure the Browns would want to go the hot coordinator, with no prior HC experience, route again....once burned, twice shy.

    All of the young coordinators are relatively inexperienced....Eberflus is in his 2nd year as DC....Stefanski is in his 2nd year as OC....Saleh is in his 3rd year as DC....and none have HC experience. All good candidates....but, certainly not locks to be successful.

    That's the main reason I threw McCartney's name out there....that and his obvious ties to Dorsey and Wolf. There was a rumor out there a few weeks ago that he was already putting a staff together in anticipation of some jobs coming open....and I'm sure the Browns would want to at least talk with him if they were to let Freddie go.

    I think you're right about a lot of luck being involved in finding the right guy....and a little patience doesn't hurt either....something the Browns organization has been sorely lacking in over the years.

    Nobody wants to hear the continuity argument.....but, it's really more about giving the guy a chance to grow into the job....if you have no intention of doing that, you really shouldn't hire the guy in the first place.

  • The only way Freddie gets fired is if they lose out, and that ain't happening. Jimmy took a beating in the press and within the league when he fired Chud after only 1 season, that will not be repeated.

    Besides as already stated, who picks the next HC if FK is fired? Doesn't JH3 have to fired Dorsey as well? The backlash would just be too great for them to fired Freddie. He stays.
    Dorsey learns a new respect for the O-line.
    Beckham talks his way off the team.
    Hunt leaves in FAcy.
    Monken is released from his contract.
    Wilks is fired.

    Then next year it really will be Freddie's team running his offensive system.

  • TheDutchman said... (original post) You hear on a regular basis, from both pundits on TV and posters on these boards, that the Browns are too talented to be 5-7. But, is that real...

    I'll quibble. The WR, RB and QB are elite talents. The WR and QB production has been suspect, or even bad at times.

    I see OL as the only real mediocre to below average unit. 3 of 5 positions need to be upgraded.

    The backups at DL and LBer need to be addressed.

    They do that and keep what they got and the team has the talent to go to a SB.

    As important, if not more so, is improving the coaching staff. That can be changing position coaches, the OC, changing who calls plays, game preparation processes. Less tolerance to unprofessional behaviour. Etc.

  • poppa9601 said... (original post) The only way Freddie gets fired is if they lose out, and that ain't happening. Jimmy took a beating in the press and within the league when ...

    I tend to agree with ya on Freddie....but, I do think it would be in his best interest to beat the Bengals twice.

    I think Hunt is a restricted free agent next year (not positive of that tho).....so, I think we still control his rights and would be able to match any offer he gets. But, I agree that keeping him long term is unlikely......eventually he's gonna want to be the main guy again....and that's not gonna happen with Chubb in the house.

  • Gary Reents said... (original post) I'll quibble. The WR, RB and QB are elite talents. The WR and QB production has been suspect, or even bad at times. I see OL as the only r...

    I'd agree that our talent at RB, WR and QB is elite....and I'd throw Myles into that group too. Baker has struggled this year, but we know the talent is there.

    No question that the OL is Dorsey's Achilles Heel at this point....and must be addressed as Priority #1 this offseason.

    I'd probably throw Safety in as an area that has been average to below average and needs an upgrade....altho some of the issues there have been injury related...and some have been contract related with Randall's behavior.

    The LB group is at a crossroads....we need to make a decision on Schobert (probably gets a new deal) and Kirksey (probably doesn't).....and hope Mack continues to improve and Takitaki starts to break the code.

    I tend to agree that the there may be a shakeup of the coaching staff....particularly at the QB and OL positions....and I don't think either coordinator has earned their keep.