Feels like tanking

Feels like tanking

  • Really? You act like football is singles tennis. And your choice between two QBs or Beckham sucking is lousy logic. Beckham had monster years with Manning, so he ran routes just fine in NY. Maybe none of the three players suck, maybe the route combinations aren't working to get Beckham free. But it couldn't be Kitchens, because Dorsey designs the offense and calls the plays. Kitchens isn't real, he's JD's hand puppet.

    Is Beckham a pristine route technician? Hell if I know, but whatever routes he was running in NY ended in a sh"tload of yardage and touchdowns. Here, he's good for two TD's in 13 games. He must have gone blind when he got to Cleveland.

    Yeah, it's just you.

    This post was edited by Gameface64 8 months ago

  • poppa9601 said... (original post) I agree with Game that he's the best GM we've had STR. But that doesn't mean he isn't the one who Fcuked up this season. Beck...

    SD:

    Unfortunately both things can be true at the same time .

    The OBJ and Vernon trade just added a me first problem to the roster and two big unnecessary cap hits while tampering with team chemistry , while Freddy has proceeded to show himself also unfit .

    The more underlying unsettling issue is Baker Mayfield's play this year ,better QB play would have provided the winning perfume to cover most of the underlying skunk in the room ,

    Very telling comment from speak for yourself where Gonzalez raised the issue that what receiver wants out if he has a FQB unless he's of the belief he doesn't have one.

    Bakers choice to come into this season fat overweight woefully unprepared unpracticed and clueless , might not have made the best impression.

    They could have run that Cincy defense off the field , yet they kept throwing the ball as if they were in an X game to give Baker reps and try to get him out of his Funk by whuppin up on the Junior Varsity.

    Needlessly targeting OBJ ,bypassing open men to force balls into double and even triple coverage .

    He ended up completing less than 50 % of his passes vs a 1-10 team.

    Certainly stability and continuity is preferred in regard to returning a HC and staff .

    But Freddy's shortcomings have raised their own stink far and above all the other problems .

    He's the teacher copping a smoke at recess with the seniors, the babysitter smokin a joint , damn fool thinks he's a rockstar and is playing the part of another big kid when you need that adult in the room.

    Freddy has some sort of self destruct stupid gene , he's managed better to control in some games over others , but it's a seemingly fatal flaw which has manifested itself in every single game this year and even showed up off the field prior to the Pitt loss.

    Hubbard doesn't jump offsides and save him from himself ,he may well have already been gone by now .

    His decisions this season are why he's coaching for his life instead of preparing this team for its first playoff berth and a guaranteed return next year .

    >>>>>

    SoulDawg

  • SoulDawg74 said... (original post) SD:Unfortunately both things can be true at the same time .The OBJ and Vernon trade just added a me first problem to the roster and two big unne...

    Fire Freddie. I can't think of anything he's done this season that impressed me and there were a ton of things that didn't.

    "The Browns still believe that Baker Mayfield is the answer, but he hasn’t taken that 25% jump that John Dorsey was looking for this season, in part because of the inefficient offense, sources say. The Browns still struggle to get plays in on time, often line up incorrectly, and Landry has occasionally called a timeout to head off disaster...There’s a disconnect between offensive coordinator Todd Monken..and Kitchens." - MKC

    He managed to beat a crippled Pittsburgh team, a solid Bills team, and a Ravens team that was just getting untracked. For him to get another year he'll need to finish this season strong and be able to convince Dorsey that the rookie mistakes won't be repeated. He'll have to articulate a plan for next year that includes him being less of a good 'ol boy and more of a disciplanarian. To be fair, the excessive penalties and personal fouls have declined. There's less drama over shoes, watches, etc. The Browns have won four of five.

    Freddie's horse has come from way behind to get back to the pack as they start down the stretch. He needs a strong stretch drive. Convincing wins over Zona and Cincy and a win or close loss to the Ravens at home. Anything less probably won't cut it.

  • The best thing that can happen to this team is losing to Cinci ... Puts Burrow in the NFC and gets rid of Freddie

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) Fire Freddie. I can't think of anything he's done this season that impressed me and there were a ton of things that didn't. "...

    "Anything less probably won't cut it. "

    -- All I want- once everyone has taken a deep breath, calmed down and it's time to evaluate things- is that they try their best not to chase after all the shadows and ghosts this season has given birth to and let that impact their decisions. Other than Jim Bob- alas- no one is untouchable. But they shouldn't let that fact make them take the easy way to please the fans and ease egos if it's not really in the best interest of building a solid team for the long-haul. (In hindsight, last off-season so far doesn't get a high grade in that area. Thanks, Buddy Boy!).

    As I sit here in chilly and wet California today, I want Freddie to go far, far away and be replaced with....? Mystery HC X, I guess. Which is not the right way to go about things. Don't make a change unless you've done some research and believe you have a better option.

    May eternal wisdom be the greatest gift that Jim Bob gets this Christmas. Also a wine decanter made of gold from Dee.

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) Really? You act like football is singles tennis. And your choice between two QBs or Beckham sucking is lousy logic. Beckham had monster years wi...

    Forgive me for noticing, but you didn't answer my question. Was that intentional, or did you just forget?

    Tell me you believe Freddie has the juice to bench Beckham, that he did bench Robinson and Randall without permission, that he can fire Monken if he so chooses, and I'll know you for the fool you rants make you sound like.

    Lament of a blind azz fool " Freddie's gone rogue" Yeah, right!!

  • poppa9601 said... (original post) Forgive me for noticing, but you didn't answer my question. Was that intentional, or did you just forget?Tell me you believe Freddie has the ...

    Your question is moot. It's not about juice, it's about common sense. You think Fred's the only NFL coach who would keep OBJ in his line-up even when his production is sketchy? LOL, no coach is benching OBJ if he can play. And for who? Ratley, Hodge, Higgins? Laughing louder. There's your answer.

    Forgive me for noticing, you skipped all my questions. So here's your pop quiz.

    Which of these 4 names doesn't belong in the group?

    Bruce Arians

    Todd Monken

    Todd Haley

    Fred Kitchens

    Your theory that Dorsey is the defacto Offensive Coordinator is nonsensical. Last year Fred ran an on-the-fly version of Haley's playbook. Fred came out of Arians deep ball coaching. Monken loves downfield passing. Any of those guys have a run first resume? No, no and hell no. Yet you've deduced that Fred was hired for his playcalling brilliance, but Dorsey immediately decided, after hiring him, to dictate a different offense. Designed by who? If you think it's Monken, why hire Fred? Might as well have hired Monken. Can Fred fire Monken without Dorsey's blessing. No, but what first year HC has that kind of power, and how often is any coordinator fired mid-season. You're not proving anything. Oh, Fred doesn't have the power of a HC/GM like Belichick. Damn, that's some brilliant insight and absolute proof that Dorsey's the reason Fred has struggled this year.

    Also you keep saying Dorsey want's the KC offense. Riddle me this, does last year's O or this year's O more closely resemble Andy Reid's handiwork?

    Come down off your high horse, its a much shorter drop than you think.

    This post was edited by Gameface64 7 months ago

  • If freddie beats the ravens i think that cements him as the head coach next year. Doing so well in the division means something. Its been a choppy ride with freddie. I dont think he’s retained if he can pull off that miracle. He needs something on his resume that says i have this team ready for the play offs.

  • oasis05 said... (original post) If freddie beats the ravens i think that cements him as the head coach next year. Doing so well in the division means something. Its been a choppy ...

    I'm not sure if beating the Rats automatically assures everyone he has the "team ready for the playoffs". How the team he's HCing looks at the end of the year matters as much as the record when it comes time to evaluate him this off-season. The team may beat the Rats despite Freddie, not because of him. And if there's a guy out there with a good track record who has made it clear he would love to step in as HC, that's going to weigh in the balance.

    At least it should. Apparently it didn't matter last year. Maybe Dorsey has learned from his mistakes. Or maybe Jim Bob will try to make sure he doesn't repeat his mistakes. It would be a shame if the window that got opened a little last year gets closed down. What a waste of the gifts bestowed upon the Browns by their prior regime.

    A Christmas parable waiting to be written. "Gather round kids and let me tell you the sad story of a football team who missed the golden opportunity that lay before them. It all starts on a cold January day in Cleveland..."

  • poppa9601 said... (original post) Forgive me for noticing, but you didn't answer my question. Was that intentional, or did you just forget?Tell me you believe Freddie has the ...

    ""Lament of a blind azz fool """

    SD:

    Loabaf , makes for a catchy handle , I can type that instead of Poppa when you insist on going unhinged.

    Browns have had numerous problems from day one of this Dorsey Kitchens collaborative.

    Not the least bit of which involved a once a week drama episode from before OTA's and the draft

    involving one player or another on this team.

    An established coach with a hard azz rep would have never been challenged like this week in and week out ,Gregg Williams would have sawed off the bull sheet .

    McCarthy wouldn't have tolerated it , Bruce Arians , not a chance, Bill Parcells, Puhhh-leeese.

    But Freddy Kitchens ..…..……..……..…who Dat.

    Blame Dorsey all you want , but Freddy is the one who failed to step up to the HMFIC and weild the power of his office .

    You lead they follow ,you let your daughters dress you , you won't need a baby sitter anymore because your azz will be sitting home.

    >>>>

    SoulDawg

  • POPPA:

    As to Game assertion that Odell was great in NY, I can't help but notice they didn't win any SB's while he was there. Not many games either.

    AA:

    Please. This is football, not basketball with 5 starters where one new guy can help double a team’s win total in one season.

    Football has 22 starters, and none play more than half the snaps since Chuck Bednarik. QB’s are really about the closest any one player can get to affecting wins. Great players toil on losing teams just as marginal players are along for the ride on championship teams. Canton is full of them, and Joe Thomas will be joining them in a couple of years.

    Beckham seemed as sure as anyone after his first few years of being on his way to Canton, but his past two seasons have put a dent in that. The fact that his teams lost before, during and after is coincidental.

    This post was edited by Vaark 7 months ago

  • SoulDawg74 said... (original post) ""Lament of a blind azz fool """SD:Loabaf , makes for a catchy handle , I can type that instead of Poppa when you insis...

    "Blame Dorsey all you want , but Freddy is the one who failed to step up to the HMFIC and weild the power of his office ."

    -- Here's how I currently see Freddie: He's a career position coach doing the best his experience and intellect allows him to do in a part he wasn't ready to take on: HC. He's an easy target on Sundays in his chubby, ineffectual Teddy Bear image as he awkwardly tries to manage a game.

    It was an opportunity offered to him that he couldn't resist. But it was an opportunity that shouldn't have been offered to him to begin with. The guy who offered it to him was Dorsey. Somehow he figured Freddie was the right man for the job. Not sure exactly how it played out, but the end result was that Freddie- an emergency OC with a long track record of low position jobs- was named HC of the Cleveland Browns by John Dorsey.

    So while Freddie is easy to see and deserves criticism for the way he's trying to do a job he's unable to do, the guy who gave him the job in the first place is the one to really be scrutinized. He's the guy who is the HMFIC and is setting the course for the team's future behind closed doors. Freddie as HC is a mistake. The guy who made the mistake is Dorsey.

    Then again, maybe it was actually a brilliant move, Freddie is just going through a few little growing pains and all will be well next year. Yeah, that's the ticket...

  • ergoipso said... (original post) "Blame Dorsey all you want , but Freddy is the one who failed to step up to the HMFIC and weild the power of his office ."-- Here's ...

    It seems the main reason Freddie was hired was his work with Baker last year. This franchise has everything invested in Mayfield - he HAS to be successful. I have to believe that Dorsey's #1 consideration in choosing a head coach is who would be best for Baker.

    So he chose Freddie and was hoping to see a 25% improvement in Baker this year. That has not happened. Now Freddie is trying to spin it by saying Baker is playing better but it's not showing up in the stats. He's trying to save his job. All of Baker's numbers are way down across the board and he's also been acting unprofessionally (slamming the training staff without knowing what he's talking about, for example). Nobody besides Freddie is saying Baker has improved.

    So Freddie has failed in his most important mission - the main reason he was hired. As MKC wrote:

    "Beckham is floundering on an offense multiple sources consider poorly designed and poorly run. The sources believe it won’t succeed in the future unless changes are made in terms of coaching, scheme or playcalling."

    Freddie's other main job was to put together a high scoring offense like what we saw down the stretch last year. Unfortuately, the offense has been "poorly designed and poorly run" according to "multiple sources". The Browns have scored 13 or fewer points in 5 of 13 games.

    A poorly designed, poorly run offense and a franchise QB who has probably regressed in his second year. Job 1 and Job 2 - pretty much a total fail.

    What''s the argument for keeping Freddie? What has he done really well? A great game against Baltimore. A win over a crippled Steelers team, but then a loss two weeks later. Anything else? What is the most impressive thing about him?

  • Here's an small excuse for Freddie. It's from the weekly Power Poll comments in The Athletic. This one is on the Houston Texans.

    "In case you needed a reminder of how much the NFL is really a week-to-week league, look no further than the Texans, who followed up their big win over the Patriots with one of the biggest flops of the season, a 38-24 home loss to the Broncos, a game they trailed 38-3. Oh, the Broncos were also led by a rookie quarterback making his first road start."

    Sound familiar? The Browns also losts to the Broncos led by a rookie quarterback, in this case making his first pro start. And they didn't get behind 38-3. It was a close game. By the way, the Texans are 8-5. They're better than the Browns.

    So as much as I want to blame Freddie for losing to Brandon Allen, hey, it happens.

  • I know you're trying to be balanced, but losing to Denver isn't mitigated because the Texans did too, FTR, I'm not even putting that strictly on Kitchens, it's as much on the players themselves, and Wilk's defensive game plan. It speaks to the lack of veteran leadership on the current roster, nobody's getting the team focused and keyed high enough for the crucial games. That's partly the HC's job, but without credible locker room back up, its harder for the message to resonate. Especially with a young group.

    The Texans may be 8-5, but they're not great and they're not consistent. They absolutely didn't show up against the Ravens. They hosted Denver at 8-4, and maybe weren't as desperate as us, and maybe were hungover from beating NE. They played vs a draft pick QB with a decent college resume making his 2nd start.

    We went to Denver after our bye with additional prep time. We were 2-5 and in a must-win situation to start a playoff drive. We were up against a UDFA QB making his first ever start. Really, the season was on the line. The 2nd Pittsburgh game was the last nail, but Denver was the low hanging fruit.

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) I know you're trying to be balanced, but losing to Denver isn't mitigated because the Texans did too, FTR, I'm not even putting t...

    I want to agree with you by disagreeing with you.

    That is, I agree with your basic idea: "losing to Denver isn't mitigated because the Texans did too". And I would underscore that by disagreeing with your take on Drew Lock and his "decent college resume". His college performance and overall package resulted in many people thinking he'd be a 1st round pick. As you said, losing to a team headed up by QB A- an undrafted rookie- isn't the same as losing to a team headed up by QB B.- a talented rookie QB who was drafted high up and has blossomed in his first starts. We were lucky he was injured when we played them. Unfortunately, we didn't take advantage of that luck.

    To me, the way we lost to Denver is even more of a negative towards how the team was prepped and coached. Right now, I kind of feel sorry for Freddie. He's limited in his decision-making experience and- while I have no reason to question his IQ- he does seem limited in his ability to quickly analyze situations and make adjustments on the fly as needed. A great kind of guy to have in your army in many ways. Just not the right guy to plan the attack.

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) Here's an small excuse for Freddie. It's from the weekly Power Poll comments in The Athletic. This one is on the Houston Texans."...

    "So as much as I want to blame Freddie for losing to Brandon Allen, hey, it happens."

    -- See my response to Game above. Losing to Brandon Allen, in fact, isn't the same as losing to the same team headed up by Drew Lock. I will agree that stuff "happens". The key to good management is to avoid having bad stuff happen too often and- when it does- make it stop happening as fast as possible.

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) I know you're trying to be balanced, but losing to Denver isn't mitigated because the Texans did too, FTR, I'm not even putting t...

    "low hanging fruit" based on what exactly? Your assumption of how much talent we have or how good a team the donkeys have?

    For starters, extra prep time doesn't help much when you have no film on the QB they were starting.

    Secondly, the donks lost 4 games on last play FG's. They were and are much better than their record. But don't let facts interrupt your rant, as you haven't so far.

    Going in Baker was averaging 2 picks per game, not exactly lighting it up. And like too many games this year the defense lost leads. Wilks soft zone killed us against inexperienced QB's this year. Allowing too many easy completions and 3rd down conversions. But yeah, all Freddie's fault.

    The whole premise of bringing Wilks in as a former HC was so a rookie HC like Freddie didn't have to oversee that side of the ball. Yeah, that worked.

    I had you figured to be smarter than to think it was all on 1 person. Obviously I was mistaken.

    Speaking of lost leads, the Colts blew leads of 10-0, 24-14 and 35-21 to the Bucs Sunday. On top of which Tampa had 4 TO's, Winston threw 3 picks with one being a pick 6. The Colts have the same record as ours, I wonder if the talk in Indy is about firing Reich?

  • Dude, take a minute and read what I actually wrote. You paraphrase me as saying it's all Freddie's fault, when this in fact what I posted.:

    " FTR, I'm not even putting that strictly on Kitchens, it's as much on the players themselves, and Wilk's defensive game plan. It speaks to the lack of veteran leadership on the current roster, nobody's getting the team focused and keyed high enough for the crucial games. That's partly the HC's job, but without credible locker room back up, its harder for the message to resonate. Especially with a young group."

    You're just knee jerk reacting to anything I post at this point. As much as you think I'm a Kitchens hater, I think. you're a Dorsey hater and Kitchen apologist. My takes just hold more common sense than the cracked theories you're spinning out.

    And yeah, Denver with Flacco was a real powerhouse, and much strengthened by subbing in Brandon f""king Allen when Flacco went down. Why would we think we could even compete with them? If they're a much better team than their record, the exact same thing could be said of us. I won't even touch on which team had the tougher schedule. And even if I were to agree that Denver was better than they looked, it doesn't forgive the lackluster effort put out by the Browns with the season on the line.

    Excuses, excuses, excuses.

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) Dude, take a minute and read what I actually wrote. You paraphrase me as saying it's all Freddie's fault, when this in fact what I pos...

    "You're just knee jerk reacting to anything I post at this point."

    -- I do think Poppa was misstating and spinning your thesis while cherry-picking facts. An old and sometimes useful debate trick if the audience isn't really paying attention. Crafty old dawg...

    The sad truth is that there's plenty of blame to go around when one really starts looking at things. However in all of that, I do think Freddie stands out. Somewhat because he's on the field (unlike Dorsey) and easy to see and acts as a separate individual (unlike the players). But mainly because he's in an important position that seems- from the TV couch- to be over his head. Maybe even way over his head. That's on Dorsey for anointing him in the first place, but the blow may land on Freddie as our GM flails about to please Jim Bob.

    I don't know what will be decided this off-season. But if there is a major change coming, I think 2 things seem to be true: 1) Dorsey is safe from being fired this year and 2) It's easier and less disruptive to fire one HC rather than multiple players. In addition, we're all replaceable. If there's a better option for HC than Freddie that's available, it increases the chance he'll be replaced.

  • ergoipso said... (original post) "Blame Dorsey all you want , but Freddy is the one who failed to step up to the HMFIC and weild the power of his office ."-- Here's ...

    I'm not a fan of Dorsey either, and that's a good take.

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) I know you're trying to be balanced, but losing to Denver isn't mitigated because the Texans did too, FTR, I'm not even putting t...

    I'd say the 2nd PIT loss is probably one of the worst in 30 years, even dating back before the return.

    We win that game, we are 7-6 and still very much in it.

  • kosartoslaughter said... (original post) I'm not a fan of Dorsey either, and that's a good take.

    "I'm not a fan of Dorsey either..."

    -- It's become painfully obvious this past year that our GM is far from infallible. On the other hand, considering our past power structure the last few years, we've shown that we could do worse.

    I'm not Jim Bob, but I think he should consider doing the following: 1) Critically evaluate and decide if Freddie is the best HC option going forward. If not, go get the improvement. ASAP. Dorsey should be part of that, but not the final word. 2) Hang on to Dorsey, but critically evaluate and decide if the FO power structure should be left alone or if tweaks- perhaps significant tweaks- need to be made. This should only occur after very careful evaluation and should include input from Dorsey and be modified if need be by that input. Finally present to him what you believe to be the needed changes. Dorsey then has the option to agree to them or resign.

    None of the above should be done or decided by Jim Bob on his own, btw. Dorsey should be included, but other sources of NFL-experienced management expertise should also be part of that analysis.

    Or maybe Jim Bob should just have a slug of bourbon, keep good ole boy Freddie as HC and leave Buddy Boy alone and let him do his thang. No sense in running the money train off the rails.

  • kosartoslaughter said... (original post) I'd say the 2nd PIT loss is probably one of the worst in 30 years, even dating back before the return.We win that game, we are 7-6 an...

    SD

    Northsuck dropping the game winner ve the inbred in the playoffs was bigger .

  • Bingo. That loss sucked hard.