Jake Burns goes yard ……….

Jake Burns goes yard ……….

  • SD:

    Barry with an early Thanksgiving treat .

    Real analysis on this ***** show , minus the pay per view .

    https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/board/105323/Contents/deep-passing-game-why-are-there-so-few-shots-downfield-in-2019-138149644/

    Enjoy !

    >>>>>

    SoulDawg

  • Discussion
  • Deep Passing and alley oops in the redzone, Where the F are they???

  • He didn't mention the offensive line but I think that's one big reason they are reluctant to throw deep.

    With Nick Chubb in the backfield the play action should be effective. They have to respect Chubb.

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) He didn't mention the offensive line but I think that's one big reason they are reluctant to throw deep. With Nick Chubb in the backfi...

    SD:

    Same oline save Zeitler ,the difference is the 11 personnel sets instead of the 12 where they used extra blockers including a fullback max protection and took their shots .

    Ideal for a one read QB.

    Set him up in this scheme where he has to read a defense make pre and post snap adjustments line calls with Zeitler gone and that book is not only upside down he views it backwards like he has Dyslexia.

    Sam Darnold wasn't the only second year QB seeing ghosts ,Baker has flinched under phantom pressure and goblins all year .

    One read stair down the receiver and bail right ,

    That book was out vs the Rams and it hasn't changed.

    It's worse than Tim Couches fetish for KJ because with all these targets its inexcusable to not have chemistry with anybody .

    >>>>>>

    SoulDawg

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) He didn't mention the offensive line but I think that's one big reason they are reluctant to throw deep. With Nick Chubb in the backfi...

    I don't agree. In the first few games all Baker did was try to go deep. If you remember the ****** then was why aren't we using Chubb and short routes going across the middle. Once we had success with Chubb it seemed like that's all the focus was. There were some play action but we backed off going deep. While the oline didn't give a lot of time it gave enough a number of times. It was either the Wrs routes were at fault or Baker missing them. Add the penalties and turnover and is was a joke. No excuse to lose to Denver. NONE. On some of the camera angles I could see the Wr downfield was open but Baker threw to the shorter read. Freddie needs to have a scheme FAR less predictable. Stop giving so many options and focus more on the plays he is comfortable with and ready to use. Baker himself needs to settle down. Move UP in the pocket instead of staying back and getting caught. Better footwork would be nice too. Right now Baker is overwhelmed. Freddie is might be too. He fate is in this hands, so if he comes through fine. If not he has no one to blame but himself.

    This post was edited by hamster 2 months ago

  • https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/personnel-grouping-frequency.html

    Based on this Personnel Grouping Frequency Chart, the usage of 12 personnel (2 TEs) hasn't really changed appreciably from 2018 (13%) to 2019 (12%). The usage of 11 personnel (3 WRs) has risen significantly from 2018 (74%) to 2019 (84%)....but, the change has been at the expense of the 4 WR sets (down from 4% in 2018 to 1% in 2019) and the 3 TE sets (down from 6% in 2018 to 1% in 2019).

    Not sure what all that means....but it doesn't look like we've abandoned the 12 personnel grouping as some have suggested. The reduction in the number of 3 TE sets probably has a lot to do with Njoku's absence...and the overall lack of talent in the TE room.

    As far as why we're not getting the downfield shots that we were getting last year, there's probably a lot of factors that come into play.....defenses have schemed to take those away from us after last year's success and forced Baker to work more underneath which he seems to be struggling with, OBJ's getting doubled more than Perriman and Calloway did last year when they were running the deep routes, Calloway missing the first 4 games took away one of our deep threats, etc, etc.

    I don't know what the answer is.....but, if it were a simple fix, I suspect it would have already been implemented.

  • Can we get a do-over on Darren Fells? No? Didn't think so.

  • Yeah Dutch, this is much ado about nothing. SD found a misguided article that agreed with his rant and posted it.

    I remember seeing 3 verticals on 3rd and 8 from our own 10 yard line early in the season. So don't tell me we haven't tried to take shots. The problem is Baker won't pull the trigger, just like he didn't with the game on the line and Beckham one on one in the end zone last week.

    Just too many moving parts for this team to come together. Yet fools want more change. Never ending rebuild.

    This post was edited by poppa9601 2 months ago

  • poppa9601 said... (original post) Yeah Dutch, this is much ado about nothing. SD found a misguided article that agreed with his rant and posted it.I remember seeing 3 verticals on ...

    There are indeed "many moving parts" on this WIP. Which is a reason to question the hiring of a rookie HC who himself is now feeling his way as he tries to become a for-real HC. It's possible- is it not- that Freddie's learning curve is retarding Baker's learning curve as he tries to up his FQB-status? Add to that the change in QB coaches he had between his rookie year and this almost-rookie year. Add to that the questions regarding the o-line- approved by Dorsey- to keep said FQB hopeful upright and intact.

    In many ways last year's good start screamed that we needed to add an experienced cool-hand as HC to nurture things along the best way possible. Instead Dorsey- for whatever reason- decided he wanted a nice rookie HC he could control as he built the team as he- King Dorsey- thought best. That build has resulted in 2-6 so far. This season isn't a done deal, of course. But it's not off to a roaring start so far.

    I agree that we should let Freddie play out his hand this year. At that point, a full and rigorous evaluation needs to occur in which we decide if we're really on the right track. BTW: That full evaluation needs to have someone involved who has experience and power and is independent from the sway of Dorsey. Hopefully someone not named Haslam. But if that's the best we can do, then so be it.

  • TheDutchman said... (original post) https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/personnel-grouping-frequency.htmlBased on this Personnel Grouping Frequency Chart, the usage of 12 personnel ...

    SD:

    That doesn't explain away all the success we had in Baltimore using the motion and play action we ran last year eviscerating them , then promptly shelving that formula like Grandmas's stewed and canned prunes .

    Last year we called plays sequentially to set up the next one and the next .

    This year we're throwing darts like thieves reading somebody else's clift notes and yelling try this one .

    Situationally at critical junctures , I've never seen more unfathomably stupid calls in my 62 Years of Watching Football at any level.

    >>>>

    SoulDawg

  • poppa9601 said... (original post) Yeah Dutch, this is much ado about nothing. SD found a misguided article that agreed with his rant and posted it.I remember seeing 3 verticals on ...

    SD:

    To Jakes point which is no surprised you missed .

    We might have lined up in the same personnel sets , but we sure as hell weren't executing the same schematic format .

    Moreover , as I told Dutch , sequential play calling which sets up the defense for later play calling in the same series or later in the game , has all but been forgotten or abandoned while Freddie ponders over his play sheet which might as well be a Oujia board the way he's grippin on those scribbles so ineffectually .

    And Jake Burns ain't a Milfy Kay plagiarized cut and paste article he stole and put his name on .

    He put in the work backs up his observations with film and isn't just flappin his gums .

    No surprise you missed the quality and quantitative difference .

    >>>>

    SoulDawg

  • Haha you forgot Shurmur running the TE inside the 5. Or any play ever called by Mo Carthon. Sorry to interrupt your poetry slam, just wanted to provide a reminder of days even bleaker than these. ; - )

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) Haha you forgot Shurmur running the TE inside the 5. Or any play ever called by Mo Carthon. Sorry to interrupt your poetry slam, just wanted to ...

    SD:

    Ya But , those teams were horrid ugly phantoms of better days , without talent or a proven track record of success .

    The TE up the middle actually made more sense than Metcalf up the middle , except of course he never ever carried a football , and you picking on Mo is gonna Bring down Pita or whatever the hell that place is that is kind to dumb animals .

    We however unlike those woebegone offenses of the past had proven success and as much if not more offensive firepower and talent than Any Sipe Or Kosar led team and the best RB in Browns football since the days of Leroy Kelley and Jim Brown

    But Crunch time when we need a Yard Freddie decided its better to have Chubb standing idly by playing pocket pull on the sideline , while our over weight and slow QB shows him how to tote the rock.

    Don't even start me on the empty set 3rd down short yardage conversion ,pass and fail and punt we incessantly pulled in every game , rinse lather and repeat all year long.

  • Eliminating play action on 3rd and short out of empty sets. And brother, you're preaching to the choir. I've been bitching about those calls for weeks.

  • ergoipso said... (original post) There are indeed "many moving parts" on this WIP. Which is a reason to question the hiring of a rookie HC who himself is now feeling his ...

    It's also possible E that it's Mayfield who's making Freddie look bad. Just how many picks has he thrown in the red zone this year? Is it all 14 or does it just seem so?

    There's not going to be any independent review of the coaching staff at years end. Dorsey isn't going to stand for that.

    As for an "experienced" HC being needed, I see "love muffin" the 2 time NFL coach of the year is stuck on the same record as Freddie down in Tampa. But then he has a sh***y QB too.

  • SoulDawg74 said... (original post) SD:To Jakes point which is no surprised you missed .We might have lined up in the same personnel sets , but we sure as hell weren't executi...

    Yes, yes, the all powerful, all knowing film study. You two knuckleheads ( you and Jake) don't understand is what you see isn't always what's going on. The blind leading the blind, both fall into the ditch.

    It's impossible for Freddie to be in control when he has never had control given to him. Dorsey is the one in control. Make no mistake about it, the offense you're seeing is the one Dorsey wants run.

    Freddie is trying to call plays for an offense he doesn't believe in. Fools like Jake and his readers believe Freddie is trying to run the Arians offense, but he's not, it's the Monken offense we're running on the command of Dorsey. Freddie believes in the Haley offense, and by the way that's who brought him to Cleveland in the first place. A point conveniently forgotten by you and your hero Jake.

    But then simple minds think alike.

    This post was edited by poppa9601 2 months ago

  • SoulDawg74 said... (original post) SD:That doesn't explain away all the success we had in Baltimore using the motion and play action we ran last year eviscerating them , then ...

    I don't disagree with ya that the offensive rhythm we saw last year isn't there this year....the question is why. Is the problem scheme and play calling?? Is it execution?? Is it the O line?? Is it bad QB play?? Is it undisciplined WRs?? Is it Freddie wearing two hats?? Have defenses caught up with us?? Or maybe a little of each??

    Here's a couple excerpts from Jake's breakdown that illustrate the difficulty in pinpointing blame for the offensive failures....

    Jake - "Why is this offense throwing less downfield despite being better equipped to do so?" "The biggest thing that becomes noticeable right away is how closer the attention to detail was in 2018 when it came to play-action and selling the run. Mayfield, and the offense in whole, looked like a completely different group running these schemes."

    Is that a scheme problem or an execution problem?? Freddie spends a lot of time preaching about lack of execution so I think we know which way he's leaning. Or is it a coaching problem?? Baker's mechanics seem to have taken a turn for the worse this year after we changed out Freddie and Zampese for Monken and Lindley.

    Jake - "The offense is throwing more play-action but they are less effective on each dropback using it. Mayfield is also trying to throw into tight second level windows that have closed much quicker in 2019."

    Again, is that a scheme problem or an execution problem?? Or have defenses adjusted to Freddie and Baker's gig and they haven't countered those adjustments effectively.

    Jake - "Even when the Browns do get a player open using the play-action scheme, the quarterback has felt so rushed in 2019 that he is missing shot plays."

    It sounds like the O line play has affected Baker's willingness to stand in the pocket and make some throws that are there to be made....hard to blame that on scheme.

    As I said earlier, I don't have the answers....but, if there was a simple fix I think Freddie and Monken would have already identified it and made the required changes. I think they have made some strides over the last 3 games offensively but turnovers killed em in the Seattle and New England games...and they couldn't convert in the red zone against Denver.

    So, maybe we're starting to turn the corner....or maybe not. We had to hear again this week about Baker feeling the need to "force feed" OBJ....not a week goes by that we don't have to address the OBJ issue.....and I have to think that weighs on Baker to some degree.

    Ultimately, it all falls on Freddie as the HC....but, as Poppa mentioned, there are a lot of moving parts here and right now they aren't moving in the same direction.

  • Poppa, I know you're entrenched in your own opinion, and for all I know you may be absolutely correct. Just not sure how you conclude that Kitchens is running an offense he doesn't like unless you're clairvoyant. 11 years on the Arizona staff, including 3 years as QB coach under Arians. 8 games with Haley. Freddy believes in the Haley offense?

    I might agree that Fred SHOULD believe in his version of the Haley offense over whatever the f'"""k he and Monken have cooked up, but I can't say the difference is him being force fed a system by Dorsey or just him reverting to what he knows and thought would work with OBJ stepping defenses.

    The other thing is you keep saying the current O is supposed to resemble the KC offense. I'd say the KC offense looks more like what we had last year than this year. As stated many times, our current pre snaps are more static and fixed than the Chinese fire drills that KC uses to confuse defensive reads and keys.

  • TheDutchman said... (original post) I don't disagree with ya that the offensive rhythm we saw last year isn't there this year....the question is why. Is the problem sche...

    SD:

    Dutch the short answer to your questions is all of the above .

    The more nuanced answer however is the internal workings and mindset displayed by this team with the root cause coming from a simple tenet .

    Nobody on that team ,save Chubb is laying it all out , collectively they've taken the approach they can and and should be good thru osmosis, guys are standing around waiting and watching for somebody else to make plays like sheep ready to follow instead of stepping up and leading from the front .

    Cowher put his finger on some of it ,in that Freddies policy of allowing them to be individuals instead of focussing on the team concept of we instead of me is a root cause issue .

    He laid down the law and the steps to squash that bullsh!t , without finger pointing Freddie as the culprit for causing it .

    It's the fancy way of coming to the point I made of Freddie wanting to be their Buddy ,instead of correctly handling his job as their boss.

    Freddie unfortunately has failed the main ingredient of the position ,when your in command command .

    Better respected or feared or both than liked .

    You can't be their friend any more than you can give up your adult position when dealing with a child , to do so ,opens the sloppy out of control undisciplined underperforming lazy trifling lax azz pissy **** play we've seen exhibited week in and week out .

    Because players know they can slack off jack off and put off without repurcussions .

    The lunatics are running the asylum , because the coach allowed himself to be played like a ****** , allowing the little babies to be their selves .

    By my count , I'd easily have a half a million in fines for the ***** these azzes have been pulling this year ,Landry and Beckham both would never had hit the field with that bullshit , Garrett's dumb **** would have been reamed front to back for his comments before the season started concerning McCoy and roster moves way above his pay grade .

    Truthfully nobody would have even thought about trying me or anybody else who knows how to command men ,much less done so repeatedly with the impunity these azzholes get away with .

    All these jackasses would attend PR training weekly just like thePatriots do where you sing hum and tap dance to the party line about upcoming opponents in harmony or your **** gets slung .

    What Cowher said was right because we really aren't that far off and this thing is easily salvageable had we but an inkling of tough minded veteran leadership and were we not made up of metal marshmallows building their brand and ***** followers ,

    Easy to say but hard to enact because he started off wrong .

    You can't be Mr.softie then suddenly go hard **** .

    But you can lighten up if you hard in the paint from jump.

    This game is in the details ,solid work habits along with talent which lead to outworking out hustling out hitting out studying and outplaying your opponents .

    There isn't one category we've excelled at except underperforming self indulgent selfish individual play a collection of individuals without the glue to form into a team .

    Freddy has to reach into that group shape them up and pull them together and tap into that espri de-corp one for all , all for one play that Gregg Williams was able raise the call and get them to answer too.

    Because this isn't just about the x'sand the o's , its comedown to the Willies and the Joes.

    Does he have the balls to make them get off the couch do the dishes and rake the leaves,

    or is he gonna let them flip him the finger, order more take out on his credit card and continue to use the remote to rifle the channels on his TV .

    >>>>>

    SoulDawg

  • poppa9601 said... (original post) It's also possible E that it's Mayfield who's making Freddie look bad. Just how many picks has he thrown in the red zone this year...

    The team right now is 2-6 and has looked bad in several losses. Real bad at times. That's the simple reality.

    2 options exist: 1) This is just a bump in the road as guys grow into their new positions- most especially our HC- and all as crafted by Lord Dorsey is fine. Ugly for the moment, but it'll turn out fine. Or, 2) After the good start of last year, Lord Dorsey has mismanaged the crafting of the team and there is a systemic problem that needs to be fixed ASAP.

    That's the independent evaluation that needs to be done after Freddie and the team have 16 games under their belts together. If Lord Dorsey doesn't like it, King Jim Bob needs to have it done anyway. Or we just keep on keeping on and hope for the best. In Dorsey We (Blindly) Trust?

  • SoulDawg74 said... (original post) SD:Dutch the short answer to your questions is all of the above .The more nuanced answer however is the internal workings and mindset displayed ...

    In Freddie's defense, I think he did try to play the taskmaster early on....by putting them in pads almost everyday in training camp and by continuing to harp on the idea that all we really had was a group of individuals who had never won a thing in the NFL.

    But, when your best offensive player and your best defensive player are both prone to marching to their own drummer, a lot of that tough talk falls on deaf ears. I'm not sure there's a lot you can do to convince OBJ or Myles that your way is better than their way....it's just not in their DNA.

    So, unless you have the balls to cut ties and move on from all those who do not conform....like the Patriots do.....you eventually end up compromising in order to keep the peace....at the expense of discipline.

    And now the guy who is supposed to be our undisputed leader has been neutered to some degree because he has to stand up every Wednesday and tell everybody why OBJ isn't setting the league on fire.....and what he's gonna do to rectify the situation.

    If we only had 53 Chubbs.....

  • TheDutchman said... (original post) In Freddie's defense, I think he did try to play the taskmaster early on....by putting them in pads almost everyday in training camp and b...

    "So, unless you have the balls to cut ties and move on from all those who do not conform....like the Patriots do.....you eventually end up compromising in order to keep the peace....at the expense of discipline.And now the guy who is supposed to be our undisputed leader has been neutered to some degree because he has to stand up every Wednesday and tell everybody why OBJ isn't setting the league on fire.....and what he's gonna do to rectify the situation."

    -- Therein lies the problem when you hire a rookie HC- who has almost exclusively been a position coach his whole career- and thrust him into a budding WIP with some strong personalities to deal with. (Not sure it's about "balls", but as experience grows as a HC, perhaps "balls" do as well.)

    Dorsey is experienced in football. So I'm baffled as to how he thought it was the best road to go down. A record of 2-6- achieved through disjointed play at times- tells me it wasn't. But the future will hopefully show me what a genius he is.

  • Jake Burns breakdown of the ill fated 4th and 4 on our last drive in the Denver game......

    https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/Article/Breaking-down-the-Browns-final-offensive-play-137991714/

    Plenty of blame to go around.....here's an excerpt which says it all....

    "With these situations the Browns continue to show poor technique and poor mental processing. This is from top to bottom. Poorly coached and poorly executed. Mayfield is a good young quarterback, but he is in the midst of a situation where the game is confusing him and he is responding slowly to its situations. Whether it is a faulty scheme, poor execution, or poor coaching, something is wrong and it has not been identified and thus rectified. His fear of aggression and cautious approach within the pocket tell the whole story."

  • Another perspective on why we continue to struggle to push the ball down the field....

    https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/11/where-has-the-cleveland-browns-deep-passing-game-gone-and-will-it-ever-return-film-review.html

    "What is alarming about the Browns’ unwillingness to throw the deep ball is what it says about the offense as a whole, specifically three things.

    One, Freddie Kitchens does not trust his offensive line to hold blocks long enough for deeper routes to develop. Two, Cleveland’s inability to throw long is making the offense even more predictable than it already is. Three, not running Odell Beckham Jr. deep and throwing him the ball is a complete waste of his talents."

  • I'll add another Dutch. Baker is now gun shy due to interceptions. He no longer trusts throwing to spot. Its call Couch-itus. Last year he was fearless and threw to spots. There were numerous throws last year that 'could' have been intercepted but weren't. He trusted his receivers. Now he waits for Wrs to get open. This creates a number of problems. Puts undue pressure on the Oline, the timing is lost, defenders are reading his eyes and more sacks as a result. Agree we don't use OBJ near enough. He has shown if you get it close 'he' will win the battle of getting the ball. If Freddie wants Baker to have more confidence he also needs to have it in the scheme.

  • TheDutchman said... (original post) Another perspective on why we continue to struggle to push the ball down the field....https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/11/where-has-the-cl...

    So a rookie HC who doesn't trust the line given him by the same GM who hired him and who runs a predictable offense that wastes the talent of the WR recently acquired at great cost by the GM..? Interesting pov.

    Duly noted.