Just how messy will things get?

Just how messy will things get?

  • First, I'm not assigning blame on any one person. Dorsey screwed things up by what he assembled and deleted personel wise. Freddie has proven he isn't readly for prime time. Baker is lost and digressing making bad decisions. So what is going to happen as things build up and start to explode.

    a. Dorsey signed off on FK. So as things continue to spiral down when does Dorsey (for his own job) start saying its FK fault for not doing his job with what has been provided. Dorsey will have to defend his number one pick and the groceries purchased for Chef FK? Will Freddie then have to say he needs more than given?

    B. OBJ. It was reported he came to the sidelines and said " I can't get the ball to save my life". When asked about it, he said he doesn't 'recall' (note not denying) saying that. So is it on Baker or Freddie?

    c. Will pressure be put on Freddie to let Todd Monken take on OC resposiblities? It was said there was tension during camp between their philosiphy. Will Dorsey pick one or the other?

    d. Will Dorsey or Freddie put pressure on Wilks by finger pointing? How will Wilks respond?

    e. Will Freddie and Baker's relationship start to crack?

    f. How long will it be before Haslem starts to meddle and create even more drama?

    G. As a result how long before someone goes as in Freddie? Dorsey?

    In the end Baker is safe for this year or two and if a new HC comes in, that candidate will pitch 'I can make something out of Baker'. With our investment that will be expected. While Baker is making stupid mistakes I'm not as down on him yet as the other two (Dorsey & Freddie). Look at Darnold. You think the Jets are saying bust yet? Look at what good coaching (Arians) did for who was called a bust Winston. Plenty of other examples as well. I don't see Freddie learning fast enough (if ever) to keep his job. He would be the easiest and first to go. Dorsey? How tight and how much confidence does Haslam still have after all the hype and expecations given to him by Dorsey? Feels like old times right? Well maybe not so old. ;-(

  • Discussion
  • A lot of this boils down to Dorsey IMO because he made all of the hires. Could Zampese have been kept? We don't really know who's call that was, but either the QB coach or Freddie has impacted Baker. The playbook this year does not showcase the players and is awful. That is on Freddie, as is the play calling. The defense is on Dorsey, he saddled Freddie with Wilks and he has been awful also. The penalties and turnovers fall to Freddie also. No way he (Freddie) can survive IMO, but Dorsey is almost as much to blame because he wanted to hire guys he could control. Well his control of them does not matter because they can not control their own players. Whitehead, OBJ and Baker have shown their individuality, and it is ugly to say the least. Freddie is on Dorsey, as is Wilks. None of it looks good. Building a team is not as easy as managing one, and Dorsey is seeing that now.

  • Best case is that we lose to the Steelers and Bills, get Priefer in as HC, then salvage our season at 8-8 or 7-9, with better, crisper play.
    Worst case is they go 2-14 and Freddie is our HC for the remainder of the year.
    Haslam kept Hue for 2 years so we may be stuck with him until 2022 or whenever.

    This season really does feel like 1990. We had reached the cusp of the SB the year before, and imploded the following year. Carson fired 11/5 (my birthday!), right after the Bills game. Which was at home, too. So maybe there will be another November firing this year.

    This post was edited by kosartoslaughter 2 months ago

  • Dan Labbe said it best when he described the Browns as "a collection of talent with little direction".

    They should have Monken call the plays so Freddie can focus on being the head coach. He's clearly in over his head. Take something off his plate. Either fire him or help him out.

    I was shocked to see Landry wearing gold shoes in the first half. He had not scored a single TD all year and he comes out in gold shoes like he's Michael Johnson in the 1988 Olympics? We're 2-5, you have no TD's and have made little impact in seven games and you're wearing flashy gold shoes? Same with Beckham, who's either wearing a $3,000 watch, clown shoes, or has his pants too high. Then there was Whitehead, who was checking social media to see what people were saying about him before he even took off his uniform. What a joke this team is!

    They've been telling us that once they reduce the penalties and eliminate the turnovers this team will win, especially with the softer schedule, starting with the 2-6 Broncos. Well, there were five penalties and no turnovers and they still lost. Time to face the music. This is a bad team with a few pockets of talent scattered here and there.

    The linebackers and safeties are awful. The run defense ranks 29th and is worse than last year. Denzel Ward was abused by Cortland Sutton, who simply took the ball away from him in the end zone like he was a little kid. Ward looked like a midget next to Sutton. He's having a miserable season and taking him at #4 is looking like a major error.

    Whitehouse is possibly the worst safety I've ever seen and he's second on the team in percentage of snaps played. That shows how bad our situation is at safety. Randall has been hurt all year.

    We started an undrafted rookie who was on the practice squad all season at tight end. Njoku and Brown are injured and Seals-Jones had to leave after taking a shot to the knee. To be fair to Freddie, tight end is a mess. So is linebacker, safety, and most of the offensive line.

    We have too many guys who are all about their brand. Freddie is trying to be a head coach when he's never even been a coordinator and he's failing miserably. Even guys who are normally stalwarts are struggling. Joe Bitonio had a miserable PFF run blocking grade of 32 yesterday. Greg Robinson graded out as the best offensive lineman. Maybe getting benched for a game helped him focus.

    Myles Garrett was supposed to feast on this weak Broncos offensive line, but he was held to one pressure the entire game. This was a must-win game and our best player was invisible. The team as a whole only got 11 pressures - second lowest on the season.

    The defense gave up 24 points to a team averaging under 16 and playing with a QB making his first pro appearance. The tackling continues to be obscenely bad. They let a tight end run 65 yards after catching a pass. Fant made them look like high school players.

    The offense scored 19 which should have been enough to win, but they failed miserably in the red zone. Hilliard in place of Chubb on 3rd-and-3 from the 7-yard line? And they hand him the ball up the middle? Really, Freddie?

    On the crucial 3rd-and-1 on the final drive it was obvious Chubb was getting the handoff. There were nine Broncos crowding the box and Chubb had zero chance of even getting back to the LOS. Incredibly stupid play calling. That would have been the perfect time for play action and go for the chunk play, maybe the end zone. If they miss it's still 4th-and-1. Instead it was 4th-and-4.

    I'm thinking they beat the Bengals twice and the Dolphins to finish 5-11.

    This post was edited by PROSECUTOR 2 months ago

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) Dan Labbe said it best when he described the Browns as "a collection of talent with little direction". I would not be surprised if Fre...

    SD:

    Not much to quibble with except the technical point , the stupid watch was worth closer to $300,000.00 than $3,000.00 which makes the stupidity issue even worse.

    Just watched Mangini who I Ioathe make a key point .

    Late in the game , when all we needed was one drive to win the game after making a stinking mess out of things all day ,, Baker is sitting by himself , Odell is 10 players down on one end of the bench Landry on the other end and no coaches drawing up plans and talking to anybody .

    Freddies rudderless suck coaching style , is like latch key kids fending for themselves .

    Nevermind no adults in the room, there are none in the building .

    Beckham and Landry both should be dealt this offseason.

    >>>>>

    SoulDawg

  • SoulDawg74 said... (original post) SD:Not much to quibble with except the technical point , the stupid watch was worth closer to $300,000.00 than $3,000.00 which makes the stupidi...

    Thanks for the correction, but the point is not the value of the watch but the fact that he's wearing one at all while badly underperforming.

    FWIW, I thought Baker threw the ball pretty well yesterday after a couple of high, hard ones to start the game. He missed Chubb on a screen pass that would have been a nice gain and he threw one horrible pass that should have been picked, but otherwise he threw pretty well.

    The offensive line is a hot mess with no solution on the roster and the trading deadline is past. There is no depth on the DL - every backup DL got poor grades from PFF yesterday and the starters were just OK. The back seven suck.

    Dorsey's rep is really taking a hit with Corbett busting, Ward playing like crap all year, Mayfield struggling, OBJ having little effect (although he's starting to make plays the last two games), Takitaki not sniffing the field, Chad Thomas having zero impact in his second year, Callaway getting suspended, and now Whitehead getting released. Nick Chubb is the only thing salvaging his reputation at this point.

    Edit: I forget the Zeitler trade. Eric Kush, his replacement, is ranked 56 out of 58 guards by PFF. Yesterday they benched Kush for Wyatt Teller who got a grade of 43.7, worst on the OL. Right guard is a joke and right tackle not much better. Maybe Forbes will get healthy and can help at RG or RT, but I'm not optimistic.

    This post was edited by PROSECUTOR 2 months ago

  • From a Jason Lloyd column:

    "Too often this season, the Browns haven’t responded appropriately this season to adversity real or imagined on and off the field. They’ve been broken by one play that went against them.

    If there was any sign of progress in the loss to the Patriots, it was the fact they kept fighting after falling behind early. That didn’t happen in the blowout loss at San Francisco. Nor did it happen at home against Tennessee when a screen pass ruined the rest of their day.

    The larger point remains, however. Beckham is an All-Pro who has played in exactly one playoff game (and was terrible). Landry has played in one playoff game and lost. Mayfield won big in college, but is still adapting to the NFL and has never struggled as badly as he is right now. Kitchens still hadn’t called plays in a regular-season game at this time a year ago.

    With such little experience at winning in the NFL, is it any wonder the Browns have struggled to do that very thing?"

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) Thanks for the correction, but the point is not the value of the watch but the fact that he's wearing one at all while badly underperformin...

    SD:

    Yeah I'm hip that the cost of the watch wasn't the point , But it was useful to emphasize to what lengths these attention whores will go too for hype , but won't do to get production.

    Baker didn't throw a pick, but he really didn't make any game changing plays either .

    The Redzone has become his kryptonite , where he exhibits no touch or poise ,along with Freddy who absolutely loses his fckn mind and goes complete clueless numbnut when it counts the most .

    BTW throwing alright ,is unacceptable for the first pick in the draft with these targets .

    He under threw Callaway in the end zone allowing the defender to make a play on the ball when he had 8 extra yards to both lengthen the throw and adjust the trajectory to come down in his hands with just the slightest bit of air under the ball .

    But everything is a high hard bullet ,because he's throwing without a single bit of anticipation or the understanding where these guys should be in their routes ahead of time trying to make up for his shortcomings and poor study habits and lack of chemistry with this group.

    Ray Charles could see the field better ,even worse these guys are operating as if they don't like each other .

    Lamarr Jackson and his coaches worked this offseason and the improvement is evident ,and its just as evident Baker and his crew including his coaches didn't ,OBJ blowing off the OTA's is haunting us now while Baker took the lazy **** Tim Couch ride on the short bus .

    At this rate ,we'll be lucky to squeak out the four win Debacle RAC produced when that bunch imploded under the pressure of expectations .

    Bakers confidence is shot and his swag gone after being intimidated by the Louisiana Mafia

    He was neither tough enough nor experienced enough mentally to handle such a high maintenance receiver room and he's melting under the pressure of the incessant chirping and Freddies stooopidity .

    >>>>>

    SoulDawg

  • One thing that's bugging me, the elevation of Callaway over Higgins. Feels like they're punishing Higgins for not being available when maybe he could have been. Which is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Gotta think if WRs not being where they're supposed to be, then Higgins would cure some of that and also give Baker back his security blanket. Especially on 3rd downs.

    One other thing. This team needed reps, and not playing together in pre-season games was probably a missed opportunity to build some chemistry and familiarity. Yeah, exhibition game injuries are a ******, but what's going on now is even worse.

  • Higgins wasn't a Dorsey pick which might be why Calloway is playing if Dorsey's ego is all in... He got rid of Nassib so he could keep Thomas. Do I need to say any more. Dorsey thinks his ***** doesnt stink. Honestly he is very good talent evaluator but as far as team builder goes he is mediocre at best.

  • mythrand said... (original post) Higgins wasn't a Dorsey pick which might be why Calloway is playing if Dorsey's ego is all in... He got rid of Nassib so he could keep Thomas. Do ...





    Peter Principle???
  • SoulDawg74 said... (original post) SD:Yeah I'm hip that the cost of the watch wasn't the point , But it was useful to emphasize to what lengths these attention whores will go too ...




    Soul, you make the case for the failures of the coaches, Freddy on down, is the primary reason for this sad season. Dorsey isn't blamless, but he brought in talent not being utilized on the field.
  • hamster said... (original post) First, I'm not assigning blame on any one person. Dorsey screwed things up by what he assembled and deleted personel wise. Freddie has proven ...

    Well, Dorsey hired Freddie knowing full well what his experience level was, so firing him regardless of the season record will really lower my opinion of him. Hiring young coaches is in vogue these days and learning curve is expected. Shouldn't have hired him if he didn't expect some issues.

    The Browns do need to tweak the coaching staff though. Lindley is a big part of the problem for Baker. I don't know if you caught the look on that dude's face during the game but he was scared and confused. He's in way over his head and this is the guy supposedly getting Baker prepared. Baker will need a real QB coach next year that can do the job that Freddie-Zampese did last year. I think that's about all that's wrong with Baker.

    Lindley is the reason for the interceptions. The fumbles by Chubb were an aberration. Its cleaned up.

    And Freddie was able to clean up the penalties in this last game.

    Now its getting this bunch to execute. Here he may have to bench some players like he did with Robinson.

    Otherwise the offense has moved on some pretty wicked defenses. They obviously need to clean up the redzone but that goes back to execution .I will say this...I do not understand why teams run wide down at the goal line. More often than not the play is shut down for a loss. I wouldn't call a run outside of the tackles inside the 10, especially on first down.

  • Gary Reents said... (original post) Well, Dorsey hired Freddie knowing full well what his experience level was, so firing him regardless of the season record will really lower my ...

    The Browns need to look at the red zone plays that were successful last year (20 TD's with Baker if I'm not mistaken) and contrast that to what they're doing this year. Yeah, we can't lob it to Njoku this year but that Harris guy is just as big and catches the ball well. He had a TD if he doesn't jump out of the end zone. He could have caught that pass without leaving his feet.

    Denver is 8th in points allowed and that's with a weak offense. Their defense is actually ranked 3rd by Football Outsiders behind New England and San Francisco (who we played). The Browns got 19 points with no turnovers which should have been enough to win against a team averaging under 16 points a game and starting a QB who never played a down in the pros. This one's on the defense, IMO, although the offense would have scored more if not for the bad spot on the QB sneak.

    Callaway finally made a big play and OBJ is starting to emerge, finally. In his last three games he has 16 catches in 24 targets for 240 yards. Not great, but an improvement over the four catches he had against SF and Baltimore. The Browns have four games coming up against teams ranked 29 through 32 defensively. Buffalo is average, ranking 16th by Football Outsiders. With Kareem Hunt coming back this week and OBJ starting to produce I'm expecting a better offense over the last eight games.

    This post was edited by PROSECUTOR 2 months ago

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) The Browns need to look at the red zone plays that were successful last year (20 TD's with Baker if I'm not mistaken) and contrast tha...

    SD:

    There is nothing average about the Buffalo defense .

    The Browns are 2-6 and play with no smarts intensity or focus .

    Situationally they make retarded decisions by both the players and the coaches .

    Baker has not been developed this year ,because Dorsey instituted an enabling situation where nobody can tell his dumb cocky azz no as a result , he's now less dependable than a Colt McCoy.

    Certainly you allow for mistakes by a rookie coach ,but at some point you have to adapt and improve on your hard learned lessons.

    Freddie is the retard who keeps pissing on the toilet seat ,because he stubbornly and ignorantly refuses to raise the Mfer before he takes a whizz.

    Empty backfields and Chubb on the sidelines in critical down and distances .really.

    You mop the floor with Baltimore using last years schemes but shelve it after you verify it works

    Really .

    How do you justify that kinda ignorant stupidity and stubborness ,Mr Prosecutor or Mr. Reents if you please .

    The Bills are a tough gritty team ,rallying around their Yeti QB with his limited abilities to operate in the pro game , because they see him putting in the work with them , interacting with them as a teammate and a leader , unlike Baker who has lost himself and his confidence , thanks to a coach throwing darts out of the playbook instead of using whats best for his personnel starting with the QB.

    Look at him on the sideline ,he's all alone .

    >>>>>

    SoulDawg

  • G
    Well, Dorsey hired Freddie knowing full well what his experience level was, so firing him regardless of the season record will really lower my opinion of him. Hiring young coaches is in vogue these days and learning curve is expected. Shouldn't have hired him if he didn't expect some issues.

    H
    First I hope Freddie DOES turn it around but as of today he hasn't. Yeah, we reduced penalties That only took half a season? Fixing a self inflected problem is nice but the play calling stinks. There is far more to being a HC. GF brought out a good point about how last year FK ran Haley's offense with his tweaks. An offense the players by that time knew well. FK added some creativity and mixed things much better. This year (his offense) all they did was try to go long in the beginning rather than use Chubb and play action. No creativity. It wasn't until the Raven's that Chubb was really used. Then it seems all they did was try to duplicate it rather than scheme to the defense they were playing. The play calling was horrible for Denver. I agree FK might learn but do we, the team and Haslam have the patience to wait? How long? How long with the players wait? I guess we will see. No doubt a QB coach who Baker is comfortable is good and can help but you also have the scheme he is comfortable in. One that plays to what he does best. Thats why Lamar is doing well. Same for Allen. I don't see enough of that. Look at Darnold. Funny how many questioned Gase and now most are seeing why. My fear is we as usual wait to long only to waste time.

    Dorsey knew full well but please don't sell me he had any idea we would look this bad this long. If he didn't then shame on Dorsey because he never curtailed the hype or downplayed expectations. He, we and everyone else expected far more. Haven't even touched the defense woes. Where is Freddie? Is he only a glorified OC? If he can't handle it and is he too stubborn to let Monken be a real OC. Is Monken going to do worse?

    Freddie may not be hitting expectations but with added talent there is no reason to be going backwards.




  • SoulDawg74 said... (original post) Freddie is the retard who keeps pissing on the toilet seat ,because he stubbornly and ignorantly refuses to raise the Mfer before he takes a whi...

    This may be the most genius thing you have ever said SD. Its a damn near perfect analogy.

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) The Browns need to look at the red zone plays that were successful last year (20 TD's with Baker if I'm not mistaken) and contrast tha...

    Yes. The Defense has been pretty disappointing. I don't see DL dominance at all. Bad day in Denver. They need to take it up a couple notches.

  • hamster said... (original post) GWell, Dorsey hired Freddie knowing full well what his experience level was, so firing him regardless of the season record will really lower my opi...

    But the moved the ball against the supposed best D since the Chicago D of the 80s. They moved the ball Sunday.

    I think the O issues in the passing game center around Baker. He's uncomfortable out there and he never was last year. This is a coaching thing. They need to get Lindley some help because he's not preparing Baker well at all.

  • G
    But the moved the ball against the supposed best D since the Chicago D of the 80s. They moved the ball Sunday.

    H
    Gary, the number one ranked D is the 49ers. We move the ball enough to get 3 points. The Ravens who we beat just move the ball more on the Pats. Moving the ball? Miami 'moved' the ball on better teams. This is not barometer for anything. Wining is. We just got out played, schemed and the ball moved more by a first time QB than us. Why?

    G
    I think the O issues in the passing game center around Baker. He's uncomfortable out there and he never was last year. This is a coaching thing. They need to get Lindley some help because he's not preparing Baker well at all.

    H
    Freddie didn't get the job because of his HC expertise it was for Baker. Being comfortable in a scheme, keeping him comfortable and making sure he progresses was something 'FREDDIE' promised he would do and not let slip away. Therefore, its on Freddie for not doing it himself or having someone who can.

    This post was edited by hamster 2 months ago

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) Dan Labbe said it best when he described the Browns as "a collection of talent with little direction". They should have Monken call th...

    I remember Coolerites mad me for predicting 9-7 before the season and for people mad at me when I had Baker's stats at 30 TD and 19 INT ("You have his INTs way too high"). I just was worried about a sophomore slump.

    Now, the Browns have an outside shot at 2-14 and the #1 overall pick. The Dolphins are 1-7 but are playing hard each game. It may come down to the Jets, the Browns, the Skins and the Bengals for the #1 pick. Dolphins are motivated after their division win.

    This really could be the worst D since 1990--they aren't there yet even with studs like Garrett.

    I also think we are 1-2 drafts away and people got mad at me for saying that. I think as much as it sucks for fans we have to have a slow build to 2021 or 2022. Finish strong with pride this year, then playoff or .500 hopes in 2020, then a deep run in 2021 and 2022.

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) The Browns need to look at the red zone plays that were successful last year (20 TD's with Baker if I'm not mistaken) and contrast tha...

    What are your thoughts on the Steelers? They are down to 3rd stringers but chugging along at 4-4 and the national media loves them. They are playing hard as if they were 7-1 and are mentally tough. I see them blowing us out both times this year even if we have more talent than they do.

  • kosartoslaughter said... (original post) What are your thoughts on the Steelers? They are down to 3rd stringers but chugging along at 4-4 and the national media loves them. They a...

    The Steelers have won four of five with the only loss being in OT to the Ravens. They're going to beat the Browns twice. Maybe not too badly. Two of those four wins were against the Bengals and Dolphins and another was against the Chargers. They had a nice win over the 5-2 Colts, 26-24. The Steelers are looking like a solid team right now. They have outstanding edge rushers and rank #4 in sack percentage. Our tackles are going to be brutalized.

  • This is already messy. Internal backstabbing and selective leaks. Only gets worse from this point on unless the Browns turn it around.

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) The Steelers have won four of five with the only loss being in OT to the Ravens. They're going to beat the Browns twice. Maybe not too badl...

    Wow. A negative take by Pros!

    Not necessarily unreal, btw. But I think we have the talent on the roster right now to avoid the down-side you describe if it's used intelligently. Just like we could beat the Rats again. If the talent we have is used effectively. The way the team has been built has a few holes- probably unnecessary- in significant areas. But there's still enough raw talent to win those games. If it's used competently.

    If not, the Squeelers and Rats will get even further away as they wave good-bye with smiles on their faces.

  • Pros working the reverse jinx. I see what he's doing there......