MNF....Yikes

MNF....Yikes

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) I'll agree on the Chargers' need, but they're the most snake bitten team in the NFL the last few years. My bet is they try to get ...

    Yeah.....Wentz and Goff aren't going anywhere with the contracts they just signed....but that doesn't mean the Eagles and Rams aren't concerned with their play....and the money they just invested in them. Rivers may get another year but the Chargers have to find his heir apparent....7 INTs in the last 2 games. Carr wasn't Gruden's pick....who knows what he does. Tanneyhill may be a good fit for the Titans...but I'll have to see more before I believe it.

    I think Belichick would have moved on from Brady a few years ago and cast his lot with Garoppolo if he had his druthers....but Kraft put the kibosh on that. I think there's some tension between Belichick and Brady....I'm sure Belichick's way wears on ya after 20 years or so and Brady's contract is structured such that he can call the shots.

    Will he go somewhere else??.....probably not....but, he will most likely have options.

    I'd also add the Panthers to your list.....I'm not sure Kyle Allen has secured that job.....and not sure they want to go back to Cam at this point.

  • I hear ya, but it's still a smaller percentage of teams that are hurting and a greater percentage that feel really good about their QB situation than in the past. That includes the Browns......at last. A lot of really competent QB play in the league this year, including back ups, which amazes me. Usually losing a starting QB was season over, but not this year. Usually young QBs took 2 or 3 years just to get to adequate, but not so much recently.

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) I hear ya, but it's still a smaller percentage of teams that are hurting and a greater percentage that feel really good about their QB situ...

    I would agree with ya that overall teams are in better shape from a QB standpoint than maybe they have been in the past....for us, the dark days of Kessler, Hogan and Kizer are a distant memory. And, as you say, the play of backups around the league has been impressive....our old buddy Blough even looked pretty good yesterday.

    Of the 5 teams that you pointed out earlier in the thread as needing an upgrade, maybe only 2 (Miami and Cincinnati) are really in desperation mode.....and they both should get a shot at one of the young studs coming out this year.

    Of the other 3 that you mentioned, Tampa Bay still has Winston around if Arians can work his magic (altho, it doesn't seem to be working too well so far), Denver just drafted Lock in the 2nd round last year so they almost have to give him a shot and the Squeelers always have Jughead lurking in the background.....elbow surgery at his age is serious business but I fully expect the fatass to come back next year and haunt us.....a head butt at 60 mph with an SUV didn't stop him, so I doubt that an elbow problem will.

    I noticed that I inadvertently left 2 starting, or ex-starting, QBs off of my initial listing of those falling below a QB rating of 90....Flacco (85.1) and Rudolph (80.3)......Freudian slip I guess.

    Baker's still at a QB rating of 80.5.....60.3% completion percentage, 14 TDs/13 INTs and 7.3 yds per attempt.....but, I think he's running somewhere between 95 and 100 over these last 3 games so, hopefully, he's turned the corner and nothing but good things are ahead.

  • TheDutchman said... (original post) Two guys we passed on in 2017 when we didn't have a QB (and had two first round picks)....but, in fairness, we did get DeShone Kizer.I...

    We took Garrett #1 in 2017. Mahomes went #10. There isn't a team in the league that would have taken Mahomes #1 so I can't fault the Browns for "passing" on Mahomes to take Garrett. The next QB drafted was Trubisky at #2. Some in the Browns organization preferred Trubisky over Garrett. Thankfully they were outvoted.

    The Browns had the #12 pick and I read they were going to take Mahomes but John Dorsey traded up to snatch him at #10. The Browns passed on Watson at #12, trading the pick for what turned out to be Jabrill Peppers and Denzel Ward. Peppers ended up being part of the OBJ trade with the Giants.

    If the Browns had stayed at #12 and taken Watson they would not have drafted Mayfield in 2018 and they would not have had Houston's 2018 first round pick that they used on Ward. They may not have had the first pick in the 2018 draft if Watson was their QB in 2017 instead of Kizer. But even if they did I'm sure they would have taken Saquon Barkley, which means they would have not taken Nick Chubb in round 2.

    Basically we'd have Watson and Barkley instead of Mayfield and Chubb. We wouldn't have Denzel Ward and we would have had to give up a high draft pick instead of Peppers to get OBJ. I don't think we'd be a better team if we took Watson, although you have to love a Watson/Barkley backfield. It might depend on who we took in the second round instead of Chubb.

    The QB they probably missed on was Carson Wentz. Here's who we got for that pick after the smoke cleared:

    Corey Coleman (traded to Bills for 7th round pick)
    Shon Coleman (traded to 49ers for 7th round pick)
    Cody Kessler (traded to Jacksonville for a conditional 7th round pick)
    Derrick Kindred (released)
    Spencer Drango (released)
    Ricardo Louis (released)
    Jordan Payton (released)
    Jabrill Peppers (included in the trade for OBJ)
    Deshone Kizer (traded, along with picks, for Damarious Randall and picks)
    Denzel Ward (starting corner)
    Chad Thomas (backup DE)

    We basically traded Wentz for Ward, Randall, Thomas, and part of the OBJ trade. The Browns got hosed on that one, although Randall is a good player, Thomas is starting to contribute, and Ward has Pro Bowl potential at a key position. But it's mind-boggling to look at that list and see all the wasted draft picks, especially Corey Coleman.

    This post was edited by PROSECUTOR 1 month ago

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) We took Garrett #1 in 2017. Mahomes went #10. There isn't a team in the league that would have taken Mahomes #1 so I can't fault the B...

    I don't disagree with any of your chronology....but, the bottom line is we went into the 2017 draft without a FQB and two first round picks....and came out of the 2017 draft without a FQB. The fact that things may have worked out for us in retrospect is good...but, it still doesn't excuse the thinking of the Sashi regime at the time.

    As I said earlier, I think most impartial observers would consider passing on Mahomes and Watson, when you didn't have a FQB, to be a missed opportunity. I agree we were never gonna take Mahomes at #1.....but, if the rumors were correct at the time and we really liked Mahomes, we had the ammo to come up to #10 where the Chiefs stole him...or even a little higher if necessary.

    Hindsight's always 20/20....and I'm not trying to turn this into a Baker vs Mahomes vs Watson discussion....I like all three and I'm fine with the guy we ended up with...and, as you said, we also picked up some additional talent with the picks we got for trading out of #12...so, all's well that ends well I guess.

    I just thought it was paramount, at that point in time, to come away from that draft with our FQB.....and I don't mean DeShone Kizer.

    Yeah....the spoils of the Wentz trade don't look so good in retrospect....the Corey Coleman pick has to go down as one of the worst since Mike Junkin....Marty's mad dog in a meat shop....Lol.

  • Oh yeah, although Gilbert is my all time worst draft pick ever when you consider who was still on the board. Although Belichick's panic pick of Craig Powell was up there. Strategically bad, BB also took a center (Steve Everett) with the 14th pick when the team was devoid of skill players. As good of a coach as Mumbles has become, he really sucked at talent evaluation in Cleveland. IMO, that, more than cutting Kosar or his prickly relationship with the media was his undoing with the Browns. Mangini had an all time bad draft. Coleman, Manziel, Warren, Shelton, Vardell, William Green......oy.

    Come to think of it, there's too GD many examples to choose from. Reflecting on it makes me want to drink whiskey until I'm unconscious.

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) Oh yeah, although Gilbert is my all time worst draft pick ever when you consider who was still on the board. Although Belichick's panic pic...

    Don't forget about.....Charles White.....Clifford Charlton......Courtney Brown.....Jeff Faine......Kam Wimbley.....Phil Taylor.....Trent Richardson/Brandon Weeden (the Daily Double in 2012)......Barkevious Mingo.

    It doesn't really seem to matter who's been rolling the dice for us.....we've come up snake eyes more than not over the years.

    Drink!!

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) Oh yeah, although Gilbert is my all time worst draft pick ever when you consider who was still on the board. Although Belichick's panic pic...

    Belichick also draft a fullback, Tommy Vardell, at #9. Ridiculous.

    When Belichick arrived in Cleveland he found a finesse team. The Giants were a physical team and Belichick announced that he was going to transform the Browns into a physical, NFC North type of team. He was shocked that there were no 300-pound players on the roster and he immediately drafted four of them. He wanted to build from the middle out so his first three #1 picks were Eric Turner, Vardell, and Everitt.

    At least Turner ended up being a Pro Bowler and DPOY. Everitt was a solid starter, but not worth the #14 pick. Vardell made no impact whatsoever from what I recall. Nobody is drafting centers and fullbacks in the first round anymore.

  • Nobody was drafting centers and fullbacks in the first round back then either. One of the core lessons I believe Belichick took from his time in Cleveland was that he needed strong talent evaluators and offensive coaches. As brilliant as BB was on defense and special teams, he still needed some people smarter than himself to fully build a franchise. The hubris he carried with the Browns led to the ******* drafts that got him fired, along with his tendency to bring a defensive mindset to the other side of the ball. Automaton game managers like Testaverde, Metcalf up the middle, etc.

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) Oh yeah, although Gilbert is my all time worst draft pick ever when you consider who was still on the board. Although Belichick's panic pic...

    "As good of a coach as Mumbles has become, he really sucked at talent evaluation in Cleveland."

    -- BB was a 1st time HC at that point. Are you saying he was the sole or even strongest voice when it came time to making draft decisions? Who was the GM and the personnel guru back then? This is a request for info, not a criticism. It's as hard to believe that BB can be blamed for all draft decisions in his day as it is to say the same about Sashi Brown. Both guys had clear limits in their back-grounds and- given that one was a 1st time HC with a strong D back-ground and the other was more a numbers guy than talent evaluator- it seems logical that there were other strong voices who were the main motivators of many draft moves.

  • In 1991, Ernie Across was GM, after that there was Lombardi (pro personnel and Anile, college). If you look at what positions got picked where, it's clear Belichick had his mitts all over those drafts. I can't find anything specific, but if it walks like a duck. I did see a quote from Gary Tranquil, QB coach. He said Belichick insisted on calling the offensive plays despite his defensive background. He claimed BB called plays that gave him trouble as a DC, not anything creative or tailored to his offensive skill players. Does that sound like a coach who would concede control of the draft?

  • PROSECUTOR said... (original post) Belichick also draft a fullback, Tommy Vardell, at #9. Ridiculous. When Belichick arrived in Cleveland he found a finesse team. The Giants were ...

    Should we do the same here?

    Browns have skills players but a finesse OL.

    He built the '91-95 Browns into the NFC East, but in the AFC Central/North.

    I forgot about Tranquil! I just remember the OC was Steve Crosby and forgot we also had a QB coach. Trestman must have been gone after Uncle Bud.

    Dumb question: How does a professional NFL football team not have 300-lb. players on its roster?

    This post was edited by kosartoslaughter 1 month ago

  • Gameface64 said... (original post) In 1991, Ernie Across was GM, after that there was Lombardi (pro personnel and Anile, college). If you look at what positions got picked where, ...

    "Does that sound like a coach who would concede control of the draft?"

    -- It does not. Perhaps Accorsi- the GM at that time- was as willing to bend to his HC's opinions as you would think Sashi was later on. Interesting. At least Sashi was less involved in personnel details than Accorsi and therefore had more reason to give in.

  • Remember that Accorsi was always closely connected to the NY Giants, and Modell was a native NYer. There was probably a strong recommendation from Mara and Rooney to hire Belichick. Acorsi also had one foot out the door when Mumbles came in. He was out of Cleveland after 1992 and back with the Giants in 94. (He was instrumental in the Eli Manning draft). My feeling is that Accorsi had been in place since 85, and wasn't up for rebooting the Browns and wrestling with a micromanager like Belichick. So he ceded control, acted as advisor, and worked out his exit strategy.

    That last bit is purely me speculating. Front office machinations don't interest me much, and at that time, there was less information available and I concentrated on the action on the field. Which is still my preference, although when Reents or this site pulls back the curtain in Berea, it's pretty fascinating.